2023-09-11T23:02:00Z

Thaddius al'Guy: Created page with "==General== '''Hosts:''' *Dianna Melear *Thaddius al'Guy *Adolla Ceryia '''Release date:''' *October 11th, 2022 '''Synopsis''' In this episode, Doll, Thad & Dia..."

==General==
'''Hosts:'''
*[[Dianna Melear]]
*[[Thaddius al'Guy]]
*[[Adolla Ceryia]]

'''Release date:'''
*October 11th, 2022

'''Synopsis'''

In this episode, Doll, Thad & Dianna talk about the Wheel of Time panel that occurred at NYCC 2022.

==NYCC 2022 Edition Transcript==

'''00;00;08;02 - 00;00;09;20'''

'''Dianna'''

Hi Everyone. And welcome to this special edition of TarValon Talks. This is a “Sounding of the Horn” episode where we talk about the New York Comic-Con panel that occurred on October 7, 2022. I'm Dianna.

'''00;00;19;29 - 00;00;21;01'''

'''Doll'''

And I'm Doll.

'''00;00;21;01 - 00;00;21;18'''

'''Thad'''

And I'm Thad

'''00;00;21;18 - 00;00;37;18'''

'''Dianna'''

And we are going to talk about all things with the panel. We are going to break down the sneak peek that we got. And we're also going to talk a little bit about release date timing and why we don't have that yet. All righty. So should we just jump on in?

'''00;00;38;01 - 00;00;39;21'''

'''Doll'''

I think we should.

'''00;00;38;01 - 00;00;39;21'''

'''Thad'''

Head first.

'''00;00;40;02 - 00;01;16;27'''

'''Dianna'''

I should say that Doll ,Thad, and I were not in the audience. And so unfortunately, we have not seen the Elaine and Mat clips that they dropped at the panel. Maybe we'll do another Sounding of the Horn episode whenever those come out. Maybe we won't. Maybe we'll talk about them in a future episode. Not sure. I think we should start at the top with Rosamund Pike's absolutely incredible and unhinged intro.

But Rosamund Pike released a video, because she was not at the panel, of her speaking to herself as Moiraine and my head canon is that it was not just Rosamund Pike, is that it was Rosamund Pike playing Amy Dunne from Gone Girl.

'''00;01;17;15 - 00;01;19;11'''

'''Thad'''

That's what I thought, too, actually.

'''00;01;19;20 - 00;01;25;28'''

'''Doll'''

She was definitely playing a character. I mean, I haven’t seen Gone Girl, so I can't say for sure, but it was definitely not Rosamund Pike.

'''00;01;26;06 - 00;01;37;03'''

'''Dianna'''

I'm just going to plug here that you should watch Gone Girl, because it's an amazing movie. But she, yes, she was in Gone Girl. Her character, Amy Dunne, is quite unhinged.

'''00;01;37;08 - 00;01;39;02'''

'''Thad'''

And that's putting it lightly.

'''00;01;40;16 - 00;01;42;24'''

'''Dianna'''

And is very good at like picking at people.

'''00;01;43;12 - 00;01;44;00'''

'''Doll'''

Okay.

'''00;01;44;15 - 00;02;13;25'''

'''Dianna'''
And it felt like that's exactly what she was doing with herself as Moiraine and I, it had me in tears. I was laughing so hard, especially when she was like, ”You have them on their knees.” And I was like, “Rosamund Pike knows exactly how crazy we all were about that line.” So it's amazing. If you haven't watched it yet, go watch the clip. It is worth every second. She's also singing. Is she singing the…?.

'''00;02;14;04 - 00;02;18;03'''

'''Doll'''

It's the Manetheren song that they did in the second episode.

'''00;02;18;04 - 00;02;22;23'''

'''Thad'''

Yeah, I think so. And if you don't know where to look for it, it's on her official Instagram.

'''00;02;22;23 - 00;02;24;18'''

'''Doll'''

Yeah.

'''00;02;24;25 - 00;02;30;23'''

'''Dianna'''

We also got to meet a couple of new cast at the panel. Do you guys want to talk about Donal and Ceara?

'''00;02;30;26 - 00;02;49;20'''

'''Doll'''

Yeah, unfortunately, we didn't get to see the actual videos they showed at the panel because of copyright issues, but they did show us a screenshot of Donal as Mat, and it's going to be hard not to compare him to Barney, but they do look kind of similar. Apparently he was in a prison of some sort.

'''00;02;49;21 - 00;03;11;06'''

'''Dianna'''

My guess is that he, this is Mat getting picked up by the Red Sisters and they've put him in a cell in Tar Valon in the White Tower. And while they're Healing him? Question mark? And this is him talking to Liandrin, which I did not realize those catchers are going to interact.

'''00;03;11;28 - 00;03;15;10'''

'''Thad'''

Yeah, that was definitely a bit wild for me.

'''00;03;15;22 - 00;03;19;27'''

'''Dianna'''

Yeah, I can't remember if Mat and Liandrin ever interact in the books.

'''00;03;20;15 - 00;03;38;00'''

'''Thad'''

As far as I can think and I've been doing a very recent reread, I can't even remember them ever coming across each other because, you know, by the fourth book they've all well, I guess we should say also that there's going to be plenty of spoilers in here.

'''00;03;38;08 - 00;03;41;27'''

'''Dianna'''

Yes, but we will try not to spoil things past book three.

'''00;03;41;27 - 00;03;48;00'''

'''Thad'''

Yeah. So well I'll, I'll leave that hanging but up to book three. Yeah. They don't interact.

'''00;03;48;18 - 00;04;00;16'''

'''Dianna'''

Yeah. So I thought that was interesting. Okay. Interesting way to sort of like I guess they have Liandrin sort of being the face of the Red Ajah, which is fine. I mean, Kate is amazing.

'''00;04;00;16 - 00;04;21;22'''

'''Doll'''

And this is back to that whole where they feel it feels like they're giving Liandrin a lot of Elaida’s roles, at least in the early part. So if we don't get Elaida, we might be getting more Liandrin for that, but I certainly hope they bring Elaida in.

'''00;04;21;22 - 00;04;25;19'''

'''Dianna'''

I hope so too. That’s what we’ve talked about, I can’t wait for her.

'''00;04;25;29 - 00;04;35;18'''

'''Thad'''

Yeah, I can't see them not, really at this point, where they're covering Tear, because they did say in the panel. Right. That they are covering book two and three, basically.

'''00;04;35;18 - 00;04;40;01'''

'''Doll'''

Rafe said that they would actually be at the end of book three at the end of this.

'''00;04;40;04 - 00;04;45;04'''

'''Thad'''

So we, as I think one of you predicted, we will get to see the sacking of Tear.

'''00;04;46;21 - 00;04;49;26'''

'''Doll'''

And… Ceara? Is it Ceara?

'''00;04;49;26 - 00;04;52;24'''

'''Dianna'''

I think I might be pronouncing it correctly. It might be Cheara?

'''00;04;53;04 - 00;04;53;14'''

'''Doll'''

Yeah.

'''00;04;54;02 - 00;04;57;19'''

'''Dianna'''

They both have Irish names and we are all American, so.

'''00;04;57;23 - 00;05;04;10'''

'''Doll'''

Yeah, sorry, sorry. I have no idea what they showed for Elaine because they didn't talk about it as much.

'''00;05;04;10 - 00;05;25;00'''

'''Dianna'''

Yeah. It was also her in a room. I'm assuming it was her and Egwene in their Novice room potentially talking, the two of them and maybe Nynaeve. And my guess is that it’s Elaine being princessey and Egwene kind of putting her in her place, or maybe Nynaeve putting her in her place.

'''00;05;25;00 - 00;05;26;05'''

'''Doll'''

I would see Nynaeve.

'''00;05;25;00 - 00;05;26;05'''

'''Thad'''

Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

'''00;05;26;13 - 00;05;28;10'''

'''Dianna'''

And so that's exciting.

'''00;05;28;22 - 00;05;32;04'''

'''Doll'''

I can't wait to see the wonder girls in action.

'''00;05;32;22 - 00;05;35;05'''

'''Dianna'''

The wonder girls. I'm so excited.

'''00;05;35;05 - 00;05;42;12'''

'''Doll'''

But yeah, the picture that you showed us is Elaine in white. So I'm assuming that's her novice robe. So maybe we're skipping Caemlyn entirely.

'''00;05;42;27 - 00;05;59;11'''

'''Dianna'''

Yeah. I have a feeling we'll probably skip Caemlyn entirely. My theory for a while is that we were going to be introduced to Elaine in the White Tower. That Egwene and Nynaeve were going to come to the White Tower, and they were going to be like “Egwene, here's your roommate. She's a princess. Good luck.”

'''00;06;00;04 - 00;06;02;02'''

'''Doll'''

Yeah, it does feel that way.

'''00;06;02;05 - 00;06;14;21'''

'''Thad'''

It works better, if, I mean, it works better. You know, the whole scene with Rand in Caemlyn in book one and it can kind of be cut. We've already covered most of that stuff anyway.

'''00;06;15;07 - 00;06;25;10'''

'''Doll'''

That's exactly what I was going to say. Like we've already gotten most of the stuff that happened in Caemlyn, we met Basil Gill and Loial and like other than meeting Elaine and...

'''00;06;25;12 - 00;06;26;25'''

'''Dianna'''

Meet cute.

'''00;06;25;12 - 00;06;26;25'''

''Doll''

What?

'''00;06;25;12 - 00;06;26;25'''

'''Dianna'''

The meet cute.

'''00;06;27;08 - 00;06;28;15'''

'''Doll'''

Oh the meet cute yes.

'''00;06;28;16 - 00;06;46;18'''

'''Dianna'''

Oh literally the only meet cute in the entire series. I feel like they can do a meet cute in Falme despite the fact that Falme looks like it's going to be a disaster. Disaster “good” I should say. Disaster Seanchan caused, not disaster in terms of production. But they could still do a meet cute there.

'''00;06;47;19 - 00;06;53;07'''

'''Doll'''

Yeah, I guess you can't really do the meet cute because Rand’s running off to the Waste… I mean not the Waste…

'''00;06;53;07 - 00;06;53;25'''

'''Dianna'''

Probably to Tear I would think.

'''00;06;54;04 - 00;06;55;15'''

'''Doll'''

He’s going to meet the Aiel.

'''00;06;56;17 - 00;07;00;24'''

'''Dianna'''

So the Aiel, they cross the Spine of the World.

'''00;07;00;24 - 00;07;01;10'''

'''Thad'''

The Dragon Wall.

'''00;07;01;10 - 00;07;04;10'''

'''Dianna'''

And he meets the Aiel.

'''00;07;04;19 - 00;07;06;07'''

'''Doll'''

We definitely see some dessert.

'''00;07;06;07 - 00;07;10;16'''

'''Dianna'''

Yeah. I'm wondering if that's outside of Falme, since they figured, they filmed Falme in Morocco.

'''00;07;10;16 - 00;07;14;17'''

'''Doll'''

Yeah, that's possible. So do we want to get into the teaser trailer now?

'''00;07;14;18 - 00;07;52;04'''

'''Dianna'''

I do have one more thought, which I should have mentioned when we talked about Rosamund’s intro. She talks about being, Moiraine being in Cairhien, which and her going back there. So we're going to see some Game of Houses stuff I would think. Very interesting. Yes, Daes Dae’mar, uh which will be fun. I had thought that she was going to go off into like the wilderness to go find hopefully Verin, but it sounds like she's going to go back to Cairhien, into her roots a little bit, which will be very, very interesting and fun and I'm excited for that as well.

'''00;07;52;24 - 00;07;55;06'''

'''Doll'''

Did we see Cairhien in the first three books?

'''00;07;55;07 - 00;08;04;24'''

'''Dianna'''

Yes, Rand goes there in two. Lanfear brings him there and that's when he burns the letters and is like, “I refuse to play.” And Moiraine is like “You’re playing regardless, kid.”

'''00;08;04;24 - 00;08;05;08'''

'''Doll'''

Yeah, yeah.

'''00;08;05;08 - 00;08;21;26'''

'''Thad'''

That's, I don't think they go into the city proper but he's definitely in the built or like outer wall peasant like sector that's like outside of the main city and that you know I don't think they, I don't think he gets much further than that before he picks, uhm I might be mixing it up with a future event.

'''00;08;22;02 - 00;08;32;29'''

'''Dianna'''

He I think he gets to like a second and I think he gets to very like the edge of the city proper. Yeah because I think he's staying at an inn and that's where they give him all the letters.

'''00;08;33;10 - 00;08;37;08'''

'''Thad'''

Cause if I remember right, at when he's, when they're passing the Choedan Kal for the first time.

'''00;08;37;10 - 00;08;54;03'''

'''Dianna'''

Yes. Yeah. And Lanfear tries to tempt him into using it. I only remember that because that is still part of them hunting for the horn. And they end up, they go to the Spine and they meet a couple of Aiel, it’s the first time you see Aiel in the books.

'''00;08;54;03 - 00;08;55;23'''

'''Doll'''

And besides the dead one that’s hanging.

'''00;08;55;27 - 00;09;05;19'''

'''Dianna'''

Besides the dead one that they see in, I think they see in the first book, and they just sort of like come out of the ground and they're like, “Do you know where the horn is?” They like, “Nope, bye.” And then they just sort of like keep going.

'''00;09;06;25 - 00;09;14;06'''

'''Thad'''

Yeah, it was I think one dude who was like, pops up to the party and he goes, “Hey, I'm looking for the Car’a’carn.” Basically.

'''00;09;14;23 - 00;09;21;12'''

'''Dianna'''

Yeah. And they're like, “That's cool. We don't know what that is.”

I am surprised that we're getting Aiel in Falme.

'''00;09;22;04 - 00;09;25;07'''

'''Thad'''

Yeah, considering it's on the other side of the continent.

'''00;09;25;16 - 00;09;30;02'''

'''Dianna'''

Unless we're getting Aiel in Tear and that's what we saw Aiel was doing. That would make more sense.

'''00;09;30;11 - 00;09;31;15'''

'''Thad'''

That's got to be what it is.

'''00;09;31;19 - 00;09;36;02'''

'''Doll'''

That's why I said it looks like we're seeing the sacking of Tear cause we see the Aiel.

'''00;09;36;02 - 00;09;44;09'''

'''Dianna'''

I thought the Aiel are fighting the Seanchan. But now that I'm thinking about it, they were fighting the Whitecloaks in the little, little snippet that we saw. So that actually makes a ton of sense.

'''00;09;44;09 - 00;09;48;08'''

'''Thad'''

And I'm pretty sure, you know, plenty of high lords of Tear are in that mix, too.

'''00;09;48;16 - 00;09;52;15'''

'''Dianna'''

Let's dive into this sneak peek. I’m so thrilled, I have it up.

'''00;09;52;15 - 00;09;55;21'''

'''Doll'''

There was so much in that and so little at the same time.

'''00;09;56;04 - 00;09;59;05'''

'''Dianna'''

I think someone described this as getting crumbs.

'''00;09;59;15 - 00;10;06;21'''

'''Doll'''

I took screenshots of multiple fighting scenes and trying to determine, are these Seanchan, or are these something else?

'''00;10;06;25 - 00;10;10;22'''

'''Thad'''

Well, we know they're Seanchan or not because they've got really ugly helmets.

'''00;10;11;05 - 00;10;36;06'''

'''Dianna'''

They do look very disturbing. The aesthetics for the Seanchan at least that we saw on the sneak peek are spot on absolutely incredible, so very different than anything else you've seen in the show before. And I love every part of it. And the costume team really went to town with the Seanchan like A-plus to them. They look amazing.

'''00;10;36;06 - 00;10;42;23'''

'''Doll'''

So like this first screenshot, oh, 34 seconds, when you see that these are definitely Seanchan.

'''00;10;43;11 - 00;10;50;07'''

'''Dianna'''

Oh yeah. That looks like Seanchan. And so what we're looking at, yeah. 00:34 we're looking at Seanchan.

'''00;10;50;15 - 00;10;51;11'''

'''Thad'''

Looks like Uno.

'''00;10;51;13 - 00;10;53;28'''

'''Dianna'''

Looks like they have Uno on his knees.

'''00;10;54;28 - 00;10;58;12'''

'''Doll'''

Yeah. Uno on his knees. And is that a damane in the corner?

'''00;10;58;12 - 00;11;01;00'''

'''Dianna'''

Yeah, and Perrin is in the background.

'''00;11;02;03 - 00;11;03;00'''

'''Thad'''

Yeah. There he is.

'''00;11;03;00 - 00;11;04;08'''

'''Doll'''

I didn't even see that.

'''00;11;04;14 - 00;11;05;17'''

'''Thad'''

Yeah, I missed that too.

'''00;11;05;21 - 00;11;23;01'''

'''Dianna'''

Because this is right after they've shown Perrin looking up, so this is what he and Loial is there in the background as well. It looks like it's in some village so they must encounter Seanchan on the road while they're hunting for the horn and for Padan Fain, and get kidnaped, presuming that they fight the Seanchan at some point, given what we saw later in the sneak peek.

'''00;11;23;22 - 00;11;32;07'''

'''Thad'''

Yeah, so it’s definitely going to be on the coast. So maybe it could be stuck around Falme and you know Tanchico and Bandar Eban.

'''00;11;32;12 - 00;11;33;07'''

'''Dianna'''

Thad is looking at his map.

'''00;11;33;07 - 00;11;35;14'''

'''Thad'''

That's why I have it hanging on the wall.

'''00;11;35;16 - 00;11;35;29'''

'''Doll'''

That's smart.

'''00;11;35;16 - 00;11;35;29'''

'''Dianna'''

I love it.

'''00;11;36;13 - 00;11;52;18'''

'''Thad'''

I definitely don't think it'll be any one of the big cities, definitely not Falme, that looks way to countryside for Falme. And we know that the Seanchan got pretty decently far into the Almoth plain before I guess they were treated. I don't know if they made it to the mountain.

'''00;11;52;26 - 00;11;55;00'''

'''Doll'''

Where is Falme?

'''00;11;55;00 - 00;11;57;11'''

'''Dianna'''

It’s a coastal city, and I think it's actually fairly north.

'''00;11;57;11 - 00;12;00;22'''

'''Thad'''

No, it's halfway through it. South of Bandar Eban, north of Tanchico.

'''00;12;00;24 - 00;12;02;15'''

'''Dianna'''

I really shouldn't quote the map when I have no map in front of me.

'''00;12;02;23 - 00;12;08;13'''

'''Thad'''

Yeah probably one of the, one of the small towns in between that kind of got its own little finger off of the main continent.

'''00;12;08;16 - 00;12;10;19'''

'''Doll'''

Oh, I see it now. That's a long way to travel.

'''00;12;10;22 - 00;12;24;16'''

'''Thad'''

Well, if you use a portal stone, that's what a, that's what a Verin and party did to get to Falme initially because it was like “It's going to be three months of travel” and then they decide to do the portal stone and then three months of travel still happened because of flicker, flicker, flicker, flicker, flicker.

'''00;12;24;23 - 00;12;28;16'''

'''Dianna'''

Yeah, cause that flicker, flicker, flicker, flicker. I think Rafe said we might get flicker, flicker.

'''00;12;28;17 - 00;12;34;28'''

'''Thad'''

Visually, that would be impressive because it would be very similar to the scene at the end of the first season where Ba'alzamon, Ishamael…

'''00;12;35;14 - 00;12;38;04'''

'''Doll'''

Yeah, Ishamael. Wait, no, it’s the Dark One.

'''00;12;38;04 - 00;12;42;11'''
'''Thad'''

Well, they now said in the teaser trailer “His lieutenant is free.”

'''00;12;42;11 - 00;13;01;26'''

'''Dianna'''

I thought it was very interesting that we were clearly, that we're dropping Ishamael as the Dark One really early. I thought that is a smart choice but purists will probably argue with it. But I, I think that it is an incredibly smart choice if they are going to accelerate introducing the Forsaken, which seems like that's what they're doing.

'''00;13;01;26 - 00;13;12;00'''

'''Dianna'''

I've seen a lot of people online theorizing that that table, that roundtable shot that we see is not a Forsaken meet up. It's the Dark Friends Social.

'''00;13;12;02 - 00;13;13;23'''

'''Thad'''

Yeah, cause there’s only 12 people, including him.

'''00;13;14;05 - 00;13;34;07'''

'''Dianna'''

Yeah, I'm still inclined to say it's a Forsaken meet up, but could be the social and they could just be tricking us by having the line over that be “He may be waking the Forsaken”, especially because there's only 12. I was trying to think of, if I was a showrunner and I was going to drop one Forsaken, Who would I drop? And I decided on the old man whose name I can't remember.

'''00;13;34;08 - 00;13;34;20'''

'''Thad'''

Aginor.

'''00;13;34;29 - 00;13;36;04'''

'''Dianna'''

Aginor. Yeah.

'''00;13;36;22 - 00;13;38;06'''

'''Doll'''

Was it Aginor or Be’lal?

'''00;13;38;17 - 00;13;47;06'''

'''Thad'''

It's either one of the two because this is the really decrepit man who was at the edge of the seal so his body aged, but, you know, he didn't die, that’s Aginor.

'''00;13;47;16 - 00;13;49;27'''

'''Dianna'''

Hmm. Yeah, that's who I was thinking of.

'''00;13;49;27 - 00;13;59;09'''

'''Thad'''

I mean, he, I get, he has an important role for later in the series, but I get that can easily be replaced by anybody else, considering if you know what I'm talking about.

'''00;13;59;11 - 00;14;00;17'''

'''Doll'''

Yeah, mmhmm.

'''00;14;01;03 - 00;14;02;03'''

'''Dianna'''

Read and Find Out if you don’t.

'''00;14;02;08 - 00;14;02;16'''

'''Thad'''

Yeah.

'''00;14;02;29 - 00;14;07;22'''

'''Doll'''

This is definitely Ishamael here, but we don't see who all the cloaked figures are.

'''00;14;07;25 - 00;14;16;23'''

'''Dianna'''

And there's different costumes. So I've seen people theorize that this could be like the Dark Friends Social where we see that like a Whitecloak is part of the Dark Friends.

'''00;14;16;27 - 00;14;30;01'''

'''Thad'''

I'm leaning to believe that it is exactly that because as we, you know, we know in the show, even in the first few books, the Forsaken don't like to play with each other at all.

'''00;14;30;11 - 00;14;46;00'''

'''Dianna'''

There is one person here who has cufflinks, which I think is, it could maybe point to it being a Forsaken. Or this also could be a flashback. This could be a red herring flashback to the Age of Legends or to the War of Power.

'''00;14;46;00 - 00;14;47;17'''

'''Doll'''

I don't think they would have torches.

'''00;14;47;27 - 00;14;50;14'''

'''Dianna'''

True. Yeah, they would probably have glow lights.

'''00;14;50;27 - 00;14;53;13'''

'''Doll'''

Yeah, glow light. Which would be really cool looking.

'''00;14;54;01 - 00;15;08;17'''

'''Dianna'''

And they've definitely leaned into the Age of Legends is the future with flying cars. So yeah I think you're you're probably right it's probably not the Age of Legends, unless they were like, you know what it's War of Power, now we've lost all of our technology, but we're and we're still going to meet in the dark.

'''00;15;09;02 - 00;15;10;17'''

'''Thad'''

Should we talk about the bloody hand?

'''00;15;11;05 - 00;15;11;26'''

'''Dianna'''

Yeah.

'''00;15;12;03 - 00;15;15;07'''

'''Doll'''

Speaking of Forsaken, is this Lanfear?

'''00;15;15;09 - 00;15;19;04'''

'''Dianna'''

I hope so. Let her make a dramatic entrance.

'''00;15;19;12 - 00;15;24;16'''

'''Doll'''

Going back to the portal flashes. This could be it. Isn't that where we meet her? Within the portal stones?

'''00;15;24;20 - 00;15;28;14'''

'''Thad'''

Yeah, because she, she's in one of the other alternate realities.

'''00;15;28;21 - 00;15;33;03'''

'''Dianna'''

And you know, looking at that hand now, that hand may not be Ishamael’s hand.

'''00;15;33;16 - 00;15;34;02'''

'''Thad'''

I don't think it is.

'''00;15;34;02 - 00;15;36;17'''

'''Doll'''

It’s definitely very, it looks feminine.

'''00;15;36;27 - 00;15;39;04'''

'''Thad'''

Are you talking about the bloody hand or the hand that grabs?

'''00;15;39;04 - 00;15;40;11'''

'''Dianna'''

Hand that's grabbing her.

'''00;15;40;16 - 00;15;42;03'''

'''Doll'''

Oh, the hand that grabs.

'''00;15;42;03 - 00;15;44;00'''

'''Dianna'''

Could easily be Rand's hand.

'''00;15;44;03 - 00;15;45;06'''

'''Doll'''

That's what I thought.

'''00;15;45;06 - 00;16;00;22'''

'''Dianna'''

Which would definitely point to it being Lanfear. I really hope it is, that like the flick of the wrist that the hand does, the drama. Like I want Lanfear to have her hot girl dramatic moments so badly.

'''00;16;00;26 - 00;16;06;13'''

'''Doll'''

She's definitely the goth emo girl that skulked around in dramatic poses.

'''00;16;06;19 - 00;16;07;27'''

'''Thad'''

100%.

'''00;16;07;27 - 00;16;10;06'''

'''Dianna'''

Mhmm, I love a good drama queen.

'''00;16;10;20 - 00;16;12;24'''

'''Doll'''

This is definitely Lanfear’s Carrie moment.

'''00;16;13;17 - 00;16;14;02'''

'''Dianna'''

Yes a 100%.

'''00;16;16;08 - 00;16;24;08'''

'''Doll'''

So I don't know what else it could be, I haven't seen any other speculation on that being anybody but Lanfear.

'''00;16;24;16 - 00;16;32;03'''

'''Dianna'''

I maybe maybe it's some nightmare that Ishamael is giving Rand but I think that's pretty unlikely.

'''00;16;32;23 - 00;16;42;03'''

'''Doll'''

Yeah I think I think we definitely have a bat theme about his nightmares unless we're going to change that for season two. Season one was bats. Season two is bloody women.

'''00;16;42;15 - 00;16;56;14'''

'''Thad'''

I don't think it could be a nightmare for Rand at least because I don't think he would willingly take the bloody hand like that. That's just my opinion on it. He could very well, you know, but without framing it just seems like, “Oh, I've been waiting for you” kind of.

'''00;16;56;18 - 00;16;58;15'''

'''Doll'''

It just feels like Lanfear.

'''00;16;58;28 - 00;17;00;13'''

'''Dianna'''

Yeah, it does. It really does.

'''00;17;00;26 - 00;17;08;09'''

'''Doll'''

Going back to the Seanchan, we see a high lady with the fingernails. It seems to be her two middle fingers.

'''00;17;08;17 - 00;17;09;29'''

'''Thad'''

That was her index and middle I thought.

'''00;17;09;29 - 00;17;18;13'''

'''Doll'''

Well yeah, ring and… it's, I'm looking at the pic. Oh no. It is the index and middle finger. Do we think this is Suroth?

'''00;17;18;18 - 00;17;19;27'''

'''Thad'''

I think it is, yeah.

'''00;17;20;02 - 00;17;27;17'''

'''Doll'''

I think so, like I don't think they bring Tuon in that early. I can't think of anybody. It has to be Suroth. It also doesn't look like Tuon.

'''00;17;27;27 - 00;17;40;17'''

'''Dianna'''

It doesn't look like Tuon at all. There is somebody who could maybe be Tuon in one of the shots of the sneak peak. It's actually in that shot we were looking at earlier.

'''00;17;41;04 - 00;17;42;21'''

'''Thad'''

You think it's the damane?

'''00;17;43;28 - 00;18;21;15'''

'''Dianna'''

No, because it's not a damane. It is a very dark skinned woman with like completely shaved hair, except that her hair is all white. I don't think that's not a damane. It doesn't look like the damane costume. I think it's a, I don't actually think it is Tuon. I think it's one of their servants because their servants are, like wear all white. It's like they have the very see through clothing.

But if we were going to get Tuon in season two, that could be a shot of her. I don't think they're going to bring her in in season two, though. I think that that would be a wildly too early introduction for her. It's like 00:34 before it zooms in on Uno. Do you see that?

'''00;18;21;15 - 00;18;24;06'''

'''Thad'''

Oh, you're talking about her? I mean, she got that thing over her mouth.

'''00;18;24;14 - 00;18;26;11'''

'''Doll'''

That's a damane.

'''00;18;26;11 - 00;18;28;22'''

'''Thad'''

Yeah, it's the damane. I'm pretty sure.

'''00;18;28;22 - 00;18;29;01'''

'''Doll'''

Yeah.

'''00;18;30;03 - 00;18;31;18'''

'''Dianna'''

She doesn't have the collar, though.

'''00;18;31;22 - 00;18;33;05'''

'''Doll'''

It's hard to tell anything. Well.

'''00;18;33;13 - 00;18;35;03'''

'''Thad'''

She could be wearing something over it.

'''00;18;35;08 - 00;18;36;10'''

'''Dianna'''

I think she's a servant.

'''00;18;36;20 - 00;18;38;25'''

'''Doll'''

Oh, is it the. Oh, wait.

'''00;18;39;00 - 00;18;40;29'''

'''Dianna'''

I think it's a, I think it's a nose ring thing.

'''00;18;41;18 - 00;18;45;07'''

'''Doll'''

Is she the truth speaker? That Tuon posed as.

'''00;18;45;25 - 00;18;47;21'''

'''Dianna'''

Could be a truth speaker for sure.

'''00;18;47;21 - 00;18;48;17'''

'''Thad'''

That's interesting.

'''00;18;48;25 - 00;18;50;06'''

'''Dianna'''

Definitely could be a truth speaker.

'''00;18;50;11 - 00;18;55;23'''

'''Doll'''

Tuon posed as somebody who she wasn’t for a while, was it a truth speaker or was it something else?

'''00;18;55;25 - 00;18;57;21'''

'''Dianna'''

I think it was a truth speaker.

'''00;18;57;21 - 00;18;59;07'''

'''Doll'''

So maybe it is Tuon.

'''00;18;59;11 - 00;19;10;21'''

'''Dianna'''

That would be amazing. My favorite, my problematic fave. If we get my problematic fave in season two I will lose my mind. I love Tuon so much, but God, she's a menace.

'''00;19;11;22 - 00;19;13;12'''

'''Doll'''

We can't talk about her. She's not in book one two or three.

'''00;19;13;17 - 00;19;21;11'''

'''Dianna'''

I know, I know. So, like, I don't actually think we are getting Tuon. But I saw her and I was like, hey, if we, if we are there she is.

'''00;19;21;17 - 00;19;24;28'''

'''Doll'''

I thought that was a damane. Cause didn't they have something over their mouths?

'''00;19;24;29 - 00;19;25;20'''

'''Thad'''

They did.

'''00;19;25;21 - 00;19;36;06'''

'''Dianna'''

So I think that that's not something over her mouth. I think that's actually a nose ring with like some dangly bits hanging down. But she's not wearing a collar and the colors are very distinctive.

'''00;19;36;06 - 00;19;43;20'''

'''Thad'''

Yeah, we've got a picture of the damane from season, at the end of season one basically. So we know how they look.

'''00;19;43;22 - 00;19;44;04'''

'''Dianna'''

Right.

'''00;19;44;05 - 00;19;49;27'''

'''Doll'''

Oh, no, I'm looking at it closer and that may not even be over her mouth. That might be something in the background.

'''00;19;50;19 - 00;19;51;17'''

'''Dianna'''

Could be that too.

'''00;19;51;22 - 00;20;00;23'''

'''Doll'''

I just blew it up really big. I was like, “Maybe there's something” because it's sticking out under her chin even, like her neck and chin.

'''00;20;00;23 - 00;20;01;10'''

'''Dianna'''

Think it's a weird..

'''00;20;01;10 - 00;20;02;25'''

'''Doll'''

I think it may be a tree.

'''00;20;03;08 - 00;20;04;17'''

'''Dianna'''

I think it's a nose ring. That's hanging down over her mouth.

'''00;20;05;09 - 00;20;10;10'''

'''Doll'''

Yeah , I think there’s a nose ring. And then there's a tree branch behind her that's sort of blending in with the nose ring.

'''00;20;10;10 - 00;20;11;14'''

'''Thad'''

Wouldn't that be something, huh?

'''00;20;12;14 - 00;20;12;24'''

'''Dianna'''

Yeah.

'''00;20;13;29 - 00;20;15;21'''

'''Doll'''

We're really over analyzing

'''00;20;15;21 - 00;20;20;15'''

'''Dianna'''

That is what is going to happen with the sneak peek. They knew, they knew.

'''00;20;20;28 - 00;20;27;06'''

'''Doll'''

Well, Rafe even said it. He said tomorrow there will be a thousand people analyzing every second.

'''00;20;27;06 - 00;20;31;17'''

'''Dianna'''

Yeah, yeah. He's not wrong.

'''00;20;31;17 - 00;20;33;16'''

'''Thad'''

I still think it's something over her mouth.

'''00;20;35;01 - 00;20;36;10'''

'''Doll'''

We’ll see, we’ll have to see.

'''00;20;36;22 - 00;20;38;04'''

'''Dianna'''

Yeah, we'll watch and find out.

'''00;20;38;20 - 00;20;41;01'''

'''Doll'''

Yeah. Those fingernails are so creepy.

'''00;20;41;07 - 00;20;47;02'''

'''Dianna'''

They're so creepy. They made them so long. And I'm really glad that they secured them.

'''00;20;47;18 - 00;20;48;10'''

'''Doll'''

Yeah. Yeah.

'''00;20;48;21 - 00;20;53;17'''

'''Thad'''

But that's how I always imagined them. They always had two long nails, and I imagined like very long.

'''00;20;53;19 - 00;20;58;08'''

'''Doll'''

I always assumed they'd be curled because I've always seen, like when your nails get that long, they curl. But yeah.

'''00;20;58;09 - 00;20;59;06'''

'''Dianna'''

They'll curl down.

'''00;20;59;11 - 00;21;01;12'''

'''Thad'''

I imagined that these are fake nails probably.

'''00;21;01;12 - 00;21;04;26'''

'''Doll'''

That would take years to grow out.

'''00;21;01;12 - 00;21;04;26'''

'''Thad'''

Yeah.

'''00;21;05;08 - 00;21;18;29'''

'''Dianna'''

The manicure on that high lady on high lady Suroth for the rest of her hands. Looks real great. Whoever is doing her nails, good job. Like, she's like a perfect French tip. I love nails and makeup and hair, so any time that I see that, I'm
like.

'''00;21;19;07 - 00;21;20;29'''

'''Thad'''

You've got more knowledge than I do.

'''00;21;22;00 - 00;21;30;08'''

'''Dianna'''

These definitely look like fake nails. And that could just be a costuming thing that they were like, We're not going to make our actors grow their nails out ridiculously long, but they definitely look like fake nails.

'''00;21;30;13 - 00;21;32;16'''

'''Doll'''

I still can't get over this ridiculous mask.

'''00;21;32;22 - 00;21;34;20'''

'''Dianna'''

I love the mask. It's so spooky.

'''00;21;34;22 - 00;21;36;27'''

'''Doll'''

Like, I'm too good for you to look at me.

'''00;21;37;02 - 00;21;43;12'''

'''Thad'''

She doesn't let anybody look at her when, you know, anybody is present, face down to the floor. Unless you're a bodyguard.

'''00;21;43;24 - 00;21;45;10'''

'''Doll'''

It just sort of reinforces it.

'''00;21;45;25 - 00;22;00;08'''

'''Dianna'''

And it's it's very it's very alienesque and they have they've done a really good job with the costuming in terms of making it look very alien, very like foreign. Insect like. Yeah.

'''00;22;00;09 - 00;22;02;02'''

'''Doll'''

Described in the books as insect-like.

'''00;22;02;18 - 00;22;04;04'''

'''Thad'''

They show you those wings in the back.

'''00;22;04;26 - 00;22;09;10'''

'''Dianna'''

It looks very cool. I am here for all of the Seanchan aesthetics.

'''00;22;09;26 - 00;22;15;17'''

'''Thad'''

I do like that they redesigned the Seanchan emblem a little bit.

'''00;22;16;01 - 00;22;16;13'''

'''Dianna'''

Oh yeah.

'''00;22;16;25 - 00;22;34;01'''

'''Thad'''

But a little bit later you can see it hanging on the wall. Hanging on the wall. I guess they're defending that point. I was like, What nation is that? So I pulled up all of the emblems of all of the nation, and it was the Seanchan it and they redesigned it to look a little bit tighter than how it looks in the books, but it looks relatively the same.

'''00;22;34;09 - 00;22;35;13'''

'''Dianna'''

It is at 43?

'''00;22;35;13 - 00;22;36;03'''

'''Thad'''

00:43. Yeah.

'''00;22;36;11 - 00;22;49;01'''

'''Dianna'''

And the other interesting thing that's at 00:43 is we see another person with long nails. I'm thinking that's Turak and he's in the middle being defended by a couple of people by Death watch guards, I’m assuming.

'''00;22;49;01 - 00;23;04;18'''

'''Thad'''

Then they're also wearing a mask. It looked like it. I don't have it in HD. I don't know if this thing is HD video or not, but it's just like the background is just just blurry enough that it's hard to tell. But I'm pretty sure they are wearing a mask.

'''00;23;05;02 - 00;23;06;13'''

'''Doll'''

Image is blurry.

'''00;23;06;13 - 00;23;11;05'''

'''Dianna'''

Yeah. Yeah, it's a it's a fast moving image. So if you make it, so if you pause it it’s tough to see.

'''00;23;11;10 - 00;23;29;23'''

'''Thad'''

Yeah, each of these images are, you know, a fraction of a second. So we don't even get a full. But this , this right here is I think outside of the previous scene with them having Uno on his knees. This is the first like good shot of the Seanchan armor that we get from the front. We get to see it all. Those helmets are creepy.

'''00;23;31;03 - 00;23;34;10'''

'''Dianna'''

They are So creepy they look like bug carcasses.

'''00;23;34;22 - 00;23;40;06'''

'''Doll'''

Oh I see the nails now. I was looking at the person in the back, which I think is a sul’dam maybe.

'''00;23;40;19 - 00;23;44;29'''

'''Thad'''

Yeah. And you want the, you want the person that’s like in between the two people in the front.

'''00;23;45;08 - 00;23;46;04'''

'''Dianna'''

The guy in the middle.

'''00;23;46;16 - 00;23;49;01'''

'''Doll'''

So I see it now that's even blurrier than the other guy.

'''00;23;49;03 - 00;23;55;06'''

'''Dianna'''

Mhm. And he, he looks like, you know, because we know who's playing Turak that looks like that actor.

'''00;23;56;08 - 00;24;05;04'''

'''Thad'''

So yeah you know what, that would, that would make a lot of sense because we know that he's also a blade master. Mm hmm. So he would be probably up front defending like that.

'''00;24;05;05 - 00;24;08;26'''

'''Dianna'''

But how he is using a blade with those nails? Teach me your ways High Lord Turak.

'''00;24;09;07 - 00;24;12;13'''

'''Thad'''

Unless he's using a claw weapon of some kind.

'''00;24;12;23 - 00;24;13;20'''

'''Dianna'''

Yeah, could be.

'''00;24;14;11 - 00;24;25;00'''

'''Thad'''

But. Yeah, because he's not, he's not wearing a helmet like the other ones are. You can clearly see. It looks like he has something that comes up in front of him, like a little black triangle that comes up in front of his mouth.

'''00;24;25;24 - 00;24;29;08'''

'''Doll'''

I can’t tell if that's something over his mouth or if it's a beard.

'''00;24;29;08 - 00;24;33;11'''

'''Thad'''

Or that might be something just to the side or perspective. Looks funny on it.

'''00;24;33;11 - 00;24;35;00'''

'''Dianna'''

Yeah, I kinda think it's a beard.

'''00;24;35;18 - 00;24;40;25'''

'''Doll'''

Yeah, I think it's just his collar. And then his face is really blurry because of the motion.

'''00;24;40;26 - 00;24;41;11'''

'''Dianna'''

Looks great though.

'''00;24;41;11 - 00;24;45;21'''

'''Thad'''

I wonder where this is, because it's very desert-y looking.

'''00;24;45;25 - 00;24;56;28'''

'''Dianna'''

My guess is this is Falme and this is outside after they've taken the city. Or it could be even like I can't remember if Falme has like a palace or like a city center.

'''00;24;56;28 - 00;25;04;18'''

'''Thad'''

Kinda not really. I don't think they were described it if there’s like, like a big spiraling castle. Because it’s a port town.

'''00;25;04;21 - 00;25;09;01'''

'''Dianna'''

True, true. This could be, I think this is Falme, Yeah. This could be on the way in to Falme.

'''00;25;09;04 - 00;25;13;27'''

'''Doll'''

What is the emblems on those those flags. Those are the ones you're talking about like the Seanchan.

'''00;25;13;27 - 00;25;15;12'''

'''Thad'''

Yeah. That's the Seanchan.

'''00;25;15;13 - 00;25;17;25'''

'''Doll'''

Okay. And they don't waste time setting them, do they.

'''00;25;17;26 - 00;25;22;17'''

'''Dianna'''

They came in, they were like, this is our city now. This is our world you're living in it. Everybody from the Westlands.

'''00;25;23;13 - 00;25;32;28'''

'''Thad'''

Yeah, it is, cause you know, that's the whole crux of it. Is that they come back going, you know, “We're back to take what is rightfully ours, you will swear fealty and you're good to go about your day just to hold yourself to these oaths.”

'''00;25;33;04 - 00;25;39;05'''

'''Dianna'''

Why do you guys think they kidnap or they're trying to kidnap Loial if that's who has him in ropes?

'''00;25;39;10 - 00;25;51;01'''

'''Thad'''

If that is the Seanchan this is more of a later book kind of thing. So can't really extrapolate too much on that, but I have a theory on it. But if we're sticking to the first three books I don't have a theory.

'''00;25;51;22 - 00;25;57;15'''

'''Doll'''

Yeah. I don't know other than they just rounded up anybody who would refuse to swear the oaths.

'''00;25;57;15 - 00;26;04;23'''

'''Thad'''

Any and all. Because what we know about the Seanchan later on in the series would make this scene seem odd.

'''00;26;04;25 - 00;26;23;23'''

'''Dianna'''

Yeah, I agree. There's a particular thing to do with Seanchan culture and Ogier in particular. If you don't know what we're talking about, again, read and find out.

But I agree. I also found this very strange because of that. So I'm wondering if maybe it's not the Seanchan, maybe the Whitecloaks.

'''00;26;24;09 - 00;26;26;28'''

'''Doll'''

Is he tied up or is he wearing a harness?

'''00;26;27;04 - 00;26;28;21'''
'''Dianna'''

He has a rope around his neck.

'''00;26;28;23 - 00;26;32;16'''

'''Thad'''

It's like it's around his neck and it comes out from under the armpit.

'''00;26;32;16 - 00;26;40;14'''

'''Doll'''

Right. But that could be him hauling something with, by a harness, like it's around his shoulder and he's hauling it. So I'm not sure if he's tied up.

'''00;26;40;14 - 00;26;44;20'''

'''Dianna'''

Definitely looks like he is... Wait a minute. I'm going to watch the thing real quick.

'''00;26;44;20 - 00;26;47;21'''

'''Doll'''

He looks angry, but I don't know that that could just be effort.

'''00;26;47;24 - 00;26;50;03'''

'''Thad'''

Yeah, effort. That's what, that's what I was thinking.

'''00;26;50;09 - 00;26;51;28'''

'''Doll'''

It's hard to tell.

'''00;26;51;28 - 00;26;56;16'''

'''Thad'''

They want you to get that visceral reaction of, oh, no Loial, he is in trouble, save our baby boy.

'''00;26;56;22 - 00;27;00;29'''

'''Dianna'''

It worked.

'''00;26;56;22 - 00;27;00;29'''

'''Doll'''

It could just be using his strength to haul something. And it's like...

'''00;27;01;11 - 00;27;04;27'''

'''Dianna'''

Yeah that could be because he is. Yeah, he is doing like that…

'''00;27;05;15 - 00;27;10;15'''

'''Doll'''

Cause it’s not, if he's tied up, that's not holding him. It's very loosely around his shoulder.

'''00;27;11;00 - 00;27;19;23'''

'''Thad'''

You know, it's very odd is that I left the trailer, continue playing. And then we have Moiraine crying. Looks like she's sitting in a tub with her knees up to her neck.

'''00;27;19;28 - 00;27;29;05'''

'''Dianna'''

I think that's her in Cairhien , very, very early in the season, dealing with the loss of being shielded from the One Power and feeling very human about it.

'''00;27;29;05 - 00;27;29;29'''

'''Thad'''

That would make sense.

'''00;27;30;02 - 00;27;44;23'''

'''Dianna'''

Yeah, Moiraine is definitely going through it in this trailer, I don't think there's a single point in this trailer where she seems happy or at all at peace. She's yelling at Lan, she's in the bath crying, she is looking scared with a knife.
Just Moiraine's bad day continues.

'''00;27;44;26 - 00;27;49;23'''

'''Thad'''

Although I don't think she's the one having the worst time in this trailer. I can think of one person more.

'''00;27;49;24 - 00;27;51;23'''

'''Doll'''

I was just about to bring that one up.

'''00;27;51;23 - 00;27;55;09'''

'''Dianna'''

Should we? Should we talk about my poor precious baby angel?

'''00;27;56;16 - 00;27;59;09'''

'''Doll'''

This picture of Egwene at 51 seconds.

'''00;27;59;12 - 00;28;00;07'''

'''Dianna'''

Broke my heart.

'''00;28;00;07 - 00;28;02;11'''

'''Doll'''

She is very definitely wearing a collar.

'''00;28;02;14 - 00;28;03;15'''

'''Thad'''

She's been shackled.

'''00;28;03;22 - 00;28;07;04'''

'''Dianna'''

Yeah. And this is the moment that Rafe referenced in the panel.

'''00;28;07;11 - 00;28;15;02'''

'''Doll'''

So spoilers! But I'm pretty sure that is a collar around her from the Seanchan and she has been collared as a damane.

'''00;28;15;02 - 00;28;20;11'''

'''Dianna'''

That is exactly what the damane collars look like. Looks like they don't have the mouth guard over her.

'''00;28;21;00 - 00;28;22;21'''

'''Doll'''

I imagine that comes later.

'''00;28;22;21 - 00;28;25;18'''

'''Thad'''

Probably once they've, once they break her spirit.

'''00;28;25;25 - 00;28;40;28'''

'''Dianna'''

Mm hmm. It looks like the dress that she's wearing, is this damane dress as well. My guess is this is after she's been captured for a little bit and is trying to break free and can't, and is like screaming in rage. Yeah, I don't think this is right after she got kidnaped.

'''00;28;40;28 - 00;28;45;02'''

'''Thad'''

But she's not bloody and everything too. I mean, she's got blood on her face and stuff, so.

'''00;28;45;08 - 00;28;45;29'''

'''Dianna'''

Yeah.

'''00;28;45;29 - 00;28;46;20'''

'''Doll'''

I mean, she could have been beaten.

'''00;28;46;20 - 00;28;46;21'''

'''Dianna'''

Yeah, she could have been beaten.

'''00;28;46;20 - 00;28;46;21'''

'''Thad'''

That's true.

'''00;28;46;22 - 00;28;56;01'''

'''Dianna'''

With the One Power. Yeah. That split second broke my heart. That episode is going to be very tough to watch.

'''00;28;56;10 - 00;29;00;29'''

'''Doll'''

The way they have her scream like lasts the rest of the trailer basically.

'''00;29;00;29 - 00;29;22;01'''

'''Dianna'''

Yeah. I think they talked on the panel about how everyone in this season, people are off on their own journeys, we're diving more into their characters, which is great, but no one is having a good time. None of our main characters are having a good time this season, which is, you know, kind of true to the books. Unfortunately, this is where things, this the first turn towards things being really tough for our heroes.

'''00;29;22;09 - 00;29;28;21'''

'''Dianna'''

Hopefully, at least Elaine is having a good time at some point because she’s Elaine, I feel like it's having a good time it’s her.

'''00;29;28;21 - 00;29;31;26'''

'''Thad'''

Anything else kind of sticks out in the trailer that either of you want to talk about?

'''00;29;32;13 - 00;29;33;13'''

'''Dianna'''

Two things for me.

'''00;29;33;13 - 00;29;34;10'''

'''Thad'''

Two things?

'''00;29;34;17 - 00;29;38;07'''

'''Dianna'''

First, Nynaeve practicing with the Warders? That is very interesting.

'''00;29;38;07 - 00;29;40;07'''

'''Doll'''

That was another thing I screamed at.

'''00;29;40;07 - 00;29;50;17'''

'''Thad'''

I thought it was just like a battle going on. And then if you look at the background, you realize that she is at the White Tower, based on, looks, based on the architecture, it looks like she might be at the White Tower.

'''00;29;50;18 - 00;29;57;14'''

'''Doll'''

Yes. Still doesn't necessarily mean that she's practicing. They could have sped the timeline, a little on something.

'''00;29;57;14 - 00;30;52;15'''

'''Dianna'''

I think she's practicing. So I have a couple of theories for why Nynaeve is practicing with the sword. So she can't hear the wind anymore. She has her block now, but she doesn't want to be useless, cause she’s Nynaeve and so she's like, “Let me train with the sword.” She also bonded with the Warders much more closely than she did any of the Aes Sedai in season one and it makes sense for her to seek solace with them, especially as Egwene is like leaning more into being an Aes Sedai and a Novice

Also what better way to flirt with your boyfriend who is blade master and also a Warder than to learn the sword while he's off on his adventure with his Aes Sedai? And then come back and be like, we could span together baby. So, which is a very superficial way of looking at it. I think it's probably the first thing I said first. But, you know, on some level.

'''00;30;52;23 - 00;31;14;29'''

'''Thad'''

I more or less agree with you because if you look I mean, she's very, her clothes are clean because we see most people in this trailer are fighting the Seanchan, like that seems to be the majority of the trailer. But she's clean, she's fighting. You know, you can see in the background it's the White Tower. You can also see a bunch of training equipment in the background too, like racks of swords, targets for bow and arrow and stuff like that.

'''00;31;15;00 - 00;31;26;20'''

'''Dianna'''

I'm confident this is her training. She could even be training with Alanna's waters. One of them kind of looks like I can't remember his name. The Warder who’s played by Rafe’s husband or partner. These look like her Warder to me.

'''00;31;26;29 - 00;31;27;21'''

'''Thad'''

Owain and Ihvon.

'''00;31;28;01 - 00;31;34;16'''

'''Dianna'''

I think, I think Ihvon is the blonde one and fun fact that is Rafe’s partner that's for sure Rafe’s partner playing that Warder.

'''00;31;34;22 - 00;31;36;17'''

'''Thad'''

I didn't know that. Look at that.

'''00;31;36;19 - 00;31;49;12'''

'''Dianna'''

I follow him and Rafe on Instagram and I love watching their adventures together. They're very cute.

Also pretty sure we see Nynaeve’s Accepted test a little bit in here that's got to be the dreamy feel that we see.

'''00;31;49;13 - 00;31;53;24'''

'''Thad'''

Oh, yeah. Okay. I was, I was thinking about that and was trying to place that when I watched it.

'''00;31;54;10 - 00;31;57;26'''

'''Doll'''

I took a screenshot of it because I wasn't, I’m like “Is that Nynaeve without a braid?”

'''00;31;57;29 - 00;32;12;10'''

'''Dianna'''

It also looks like a lot of VFX. It's one of the few scenes in this trailer that looks very surreal and ethereal, which makes me think that it's probably her test through the arches.

We also see Suian, which is great, glad we're going to get more Siuan, love her.

'''00;32;12;10 - 00;32;23;24'''

'''Thad'''

We know in the book that she travels out there to see, er no, I'm sorry. I'm mixing areas up. She traveled north to meet with Rand, originally for The Great Hunt, but things are getting shuffled so she'll probably go elsewhere.

'''00;32;23;26 - 00;32;42;22'''

'''Dianna'''

Maybe she goes to Cairhien to fetch Moiraine and is like, “Get back, I need you,” which would be an honoring of the oath. Maybe we get a scene… maybe for some reason Elaida is in Cairhien and we get a Siuan/Elaida moment. That would be fun. I was just excited to see Siuan again.

Also looking incredible. The costume team really went off this season.

'''00;32;42;27 - 00;32;48;25'''

'''Thad'''

Yeah. And with those two other unknown actors that have been announced, one of them could be Elaida.

'''00;32;49;02 - 00;32;57;13'''

'''Dianna'''

Natasha O'Keefe is my personal theory for who is going to play Lanfear and I can't remember the name of the other actress, but she's my theory for who is going to play Verin.

'''00;32;57;23 - 00;33;15;15'''

Thad
But we are also confirmed that you know, we saw Elaine and then earlier this year we got confirmed on Aviendha is going to be in this season. She appeared roughly two thirds of the way through book three. Rafe confirmed that this goes through the end of Dragon Reborn.

'''00;33;15;23 - 00;33;23;05'''

'''Dianna'''

And the other thing I want to talk about, which I swear I will be respectful of, is Rand being tied to a wheel, I’m just going to fan myself a little bit.

'''00;33;23;22 - 00;33;28;26'''

'''Thad'''

You can’t see this, but she is just kind of… “I do believe I have the vapors.”

'''00;33;29;00 - 00;33;48;02'''

'''Dianna'''

It's a good look for Josha, okay? Josha, Josha did work and it is evident and it's a good look. But I think this is him being tortured by Ishamael in his dreams or in some sort of like alternate space. I can't think of any reason why, any other reason Rand would be tied to a wheel, but he is like… obsessed.

'''00;33;48;03 - 00;33;50;03'''

'''Thad'''

He is bound to the Wheel of Time.

'''00;33;50;04 - 00;34;01;20'''

'''Dianna'''

Right, exactly. And I could see Ishamael forcing him to be physically bound to the Wheel in a very literal sense, and then being like the only way to stop this is to break the Wheel.

'''00;34;01;25 - 00;34;07;15'''

'''Doll'''

I think you're right. The only other thing I could think of is of replacing the box with this. That's way too early.

'''00;34;07;27 - 00;34;09;16'''

'''Dianna'''

It's way too early for the box.

'''00;34;09;16 - 00;34;10;26'''

'''Thad'''

Yeah, the box is like.

'''00;34;10;27 - 00;34;11;26'''

'''Doll'''

Not in book three.

'''00;34;12;01 - 00;34;12;04'''

'''Thad'''

Not in book three.

'''00;34;12;05 - 00;34;18;13'''

'''Dianna'''

It’s another one of those things that I think they probably will do semi verbatim because it's so visceral.

'''00;34;18;13 - 00;34;22;00'''

'''Thad'''

You need that. That's one thing that you have to have.

'''00;34;22;01 - 00;35;03;20'''

'''Dianna'''

It is essential, like absolutely essential to Rand’s arc and just essential to the story.

So cool, yeah, I think this is Ishamael torturing Rand in his dreams some more, which seems like we're going to get a lot of this season. So maybe even like maybe Lanfear could even offer Rand a like balm in his dreams or some sort of like, safe space in his dreams, “safe space” in quotes cause it’s Lanfear. But that would be very in-character for her to try and like tempt him, basically her an Ishamael play good cop, bad cop, and she tempts him and tries to be like, “But Lews Therin, come to my side, I'm so kind to you, look Ishamael is being so mean to you, but I’ll treat you right.”

'''00;35;04;02 - 00;35;05;12'''

'''Thad'''

“I'll protect you. Come here.”

'''00;35;05;15 - 00;35;14;19'''

'''Dianna'''

Yeah. I do have to say, I sincerely hope that they never call him just “Lews” again. That is something that they did in episode eight. Drove me bananas.

'''00;35;15;08 - 00;35;20;16'''

'''Thad'''

I think I just kind of blocked it out because I always, I don't, you don't say just “Lews”. You say “Lews Therin.”

'''00;35;20;16 - 00;35;21;18'''

'''Dianna'''

It’s “Lews Therin.”

'''00;35;22;08 - 00;35;23;14'''

'''Thad'''

Or Lews Therin Telamon.

'''00;35;23;14 - 00;35;29;29'''

'''Dianna'''

Yeah. Ishamael called him Lews at one point in episode eight and I, like my skin curled. Please, never again.

'''00;35;30;09 - 00;35;38;14'''

'''Thad'''

If it's from Ishamael, I get the track. You know. And then later, later we get the very awful pun. “What are you, a loser?”

'''00;35;41;28 - 00;35;47;03'''

'''Doll'''

From Ishamael he would be purposely leaving out his second name because he doesn't respect him.

'''00;35;47;11 - 00;35;47;21'''

'''Thad'''

Not at all.

'''00;35;47;21 - 00;35;52;23'''

'''Doll'''

Somehow I feel like he did that in the book. But maybe I'm just, let me know.

'''00;35;52;23 - 00;35;57;05'''

'''Thad'''

If he did, I don't remember it because everybody always says Lews Therin or Lews Therin Telamon.

'''00;35;57;14 - 00;35;58;28'''

'''Dianna'''

I don’t think he ever does that in the book.

'''00;35;58;28 - 00;35;59;24'''

'''Doll'''

He probably didn't.

'''00;35;59;24 - 00;36;06;13'''

'''Dianna'''

If he does it ever, ever, ever, it's in the Prologue and I don't think he does. Pretty sure he never, pretty sure he either calls him Lews Therin...

'''00;36;06;13 - 00;36;08;01'''

'''Thad'''

You're going to make me go grab my book?

'''00;36;08;02 - 00;36;12;08'''

'''Dianna'''

Yeah, pretty sure he calls him Lews Therin or Kinslayer.

'''00;36;12;19 - 00;36;17;05'''

'''Thad'''

I think he always… yeah, I think he always calls him Lews Therin, because, you know, he's also insane.

'''00;36;17;08 - 00;36;17;19'''

'''Dianna'''

Yeah.

'''00;36;17;23 - 00;36;23;20'''

'''Doll'''

There is one more thing at 52 seconds. Is that a Fade?

'''00;36;23;26 - 00;36;28;02'''

'''Dianna'''

That certainly could be. That was the one thing in this trailer I had no idea what was happening.

'''00;36;28;15 - 00;36;34;09'''

'''Doll'''

You know, I cannot think of anything else it could be. Some very menacing looking blade.

'''Dianna'''

It is, that sword is terrifying.

'''00;36;34;12 - 00;36;36;03'''

'''Thad'''

It's covered in blood already, too.

'''00;36;36;06 - 00;36;41;19'''

'''Dianna'''

It could maybe be the Fade that’s with Padan Fain.

'''00;36;41;19 - 00;36;42;23'''

'''Doll'''

Shadar Haran?

'''00;36;42;23 - 00;36;44;29'''

'''Dianna'''

No, Shadar Haran comes later.

'''00;36;44;29 - 00;36;46;01'''

'''Doll'''

He’s later.

'''00;36;46;02 - 00;36;50;26'''

'''Dianna'''

I think because Padan Fain, he like works with a couple of Myrddraal and I a troop of Trollocs for a bit.

'''00;36;50;28 - 00;36;54;23'''

'''Thad'''

In the previous preview we do see the Fade nailed to the wall.

'''00;36;54;23 - 00;36;58;14'''

'''Dianna'''

True, true. True, true. Forgot about that. Definitely could be a Fade.

'''00;36;58;16 - 00;37;17;21'''

'''Thad'''

The Fade definitely did not get enough screen time in season one. I think there were three scenes that I can think of off the top of my head of over the entire course of the season. Obviously, outside of the one that was chasing them down at Taren Ferry. In Fal Dara we saw a couple, because they showed up with Fain and carried off the horn and I think...

'''00;37;18;00 - 00;37;19;21'''

'''Doll'''

That attacked them at the barn.

'''00;37;20;21 - 00;37;28;09'''

'''Dianna'''

And that one we saw barely.

So Doll you had mentioned that you think some of these are the sacking of Tear and I would love to know.

'''00;37;28;13 - 00;37;34;01'''

'''Doll'''

You know the slower we slow it down, the more I see, I think I just couldn’t move so fast.

'''00;37;34;01 - 00;37;39;12'''

'''Thad'''

Yeah I think a lot of the fighting scenes are Seanchan so I don't think it is Tear specifically.

'''00;37;39;29 - 00;37;51;03'''

'''Doll'''

When it was moving so fast I think I just, some of them didn't look as Seanchan, but like one of them was the one outside the castle that we saw.

'''00;37;51;18 - 00;37;59;07'''

'''Thad'''

I think a lot of this is the battle at Falme, because we see the Whitecloaks also charging in.

'''00;37;59;10 - 00;38;07;10'''

'''Dianna'''

I think a lot of this is also probably early season. Like I would say, so we're getting eight episodes again. I could see this being all the way through episode five.

'''00;38;07;11 - 00;38;12;28'''

'''Thad'''

Yeah, because we're going to need a significant amount of time to cover Tear. One, since it is that significant, maybe two episodes?

'''00;38;13;02 - 00;38;47;19'''

'''Dianna'''

Yeah, because the sacking of Tear is like THAT (snaps fingers), it’s very fast. I think this is probably all early season stuff also in terms of production and what they have available would make a lot more sense that they've, they've done all of the post-production on, on episodes like, you know, let’s say one through four. Plus with the Seanchan, like the big reveal at the end of season one being the Seanchan, they want to, they probably are going to focus their marketing on that, at least in the beginning and kind of bury, in the same way that they buried the Eye of the World and the Dragon Reborn reveal for season one. I think they're probably going to bury Tear a little bit.

'''00;38;47;26 - 00;38;56;14'''

'''Thad'''

Yeah, that would, that would make a lot of sense. Cause, you know, book two and three are pretty much all about Seanchan. And then, you know, we don't see them again for a bit.

'''00;38;56;25 - 00;39;05;02'''

'''Doll'''

There is one scene here at 49 seconds where we see Uno fighting. But having seen them earlier, kneeling in front of the Seanchan.

'''00;39;05;02 - 00;39;07;12'''

'''Thad'''

Pausing that at 48, that's a Seanchan.

'''00;39;07;20 - 00;39;19;18'''

'''Doll'''

I think it was just when it was moving faster, it's a lot more visually confusing. This looked more like inside of the Stone of Tear, but I think you're right. I think this is outside of Falme, and it's just darker.

'''00;39;19;21 - 00;39;36;19'''

'''Dianna'''

This also could be where, cause we see Uno kidnaped or captured in the beginning, this could be where they get captured.

This also could be like they, it's dark. They wrap, they like try to throw some sort of like harness thing on Loial to pin him down, because Ogier - great fighters.

'''00;39;36;25 - 00;39;41;07'''

'''Thad'''

I would not be surprised if all of this came from only two episodes.

'''00;39;41;07 - 00;40;04;14'''

'''Dianna'''

Yeah, agreed. This very easily could be the bulk. Like the majority of these shots could easily be from like episodes two and three or three and four. So.. especially because there's so much Seanchan in this sneak peek, I was like, okay, so we're getting our favorite, least favorite bug people, southern bug people in so much of this season.

'''00;40;04;14 - 00;40;10;25'''

'''Thad'''

That so in the vein of that, do we want to talk about why we think they didn't reveal a release date?

'''00;40;11;00 - 00;40;57;00'''

'''Dianna'''

Yes. So I went back, did a deep dove through Wheel of Time’s Instagram for their marketing for season one. And we first got confirmation that it was coming out in 2021, in June of 2021, then we got November of 2021 in July. And then it's not until September that we got the first full trailer. It wasn't until October 7 that they dropped that the premiere date was November 19.

This is very consistent with how other companies dropped their release dates. I am also a His dark materials fan and His dark materials just dropped their Season three trailer and their Season three release date, which is December 5.

'''00;40;57;00 - 00;40;57;29'''

'''Doll'''

That was also at Comic Con.

'''00;40;58;08 - 00;42;26;01'''

'''Dianna'''

Yeah, they dropped it at ComicCon. December 5, which is approximately two months, really was exactly two months from when they dropped it. So I know people are chomping at the bit to know when we are getting a season two. We all are too. We are all there with you. I just want to remind people of what the marketing looked like last time so that people don't freak out, that we don't have a release date right now. It is too early for us to even know a release month based on the marketing that they had done previously.

We've gotten unofficial confirmation of 2023. Natasha O'Keefe in one of her interviews said, I'm in season two of Wheel of Time, which is coming out in 2023. That's the unofficial confirmation we've gotten. I have a feeling we will get some quote unquote “official confirmation” of next year, sometime around December or maybe even when Rings of Power ends.

I would expect us to get confirmation in late 2022 or early 2023 of a release year, then likely a month to two months out a release month, and then roughly a month out a release date. So don't freak out, fans. It's coming. We know they're working on it. Rafe clearly wants to give us as much as possible, but he has to stick with Amazon's marketing campaign and marketing strategy. Just know it may be a while. We may still be three to four months out from any sort of date whatsoever.

But that's all we have to say. On the sneak peek. If you have questions or comments for us about this episode or any others, you can send them to producer.tvt@gmail.com. We would love to hear from you.

'''00;42;26;17 - 00;42;32;07'''

'''Doll'''

Or you can join us on the site and respond in our TarValon Talks thread in General.

'''00;42;32;12 - 00;44;03;14'''

'''Dianna'''

We love to hear from you there too, and we can't wait to talk more things Wheel of Time. And in our next episode and in future episodes, we will be covering more show news as well as it comes out. Until then!

==Episode Guide==

'''Next Episode'''

[[TarValon Talks Episode 3: Wheel of Time Conspiracy Theories]]

'''Previous Episode'''

[[TarValon Talks Episode 2: Origins of the Wheel of Time with Michael Livingston]]

[[Category: TarValon Talks]]

TarValon Talks Episode 2: Origins of the Wheel of Time with Michael Livingston

2023-09-11T19:33:42Z

Thaddius al'Guy: /* Episode 2 Transcript */

==General==
'''Hosts:'''
*[[Dianna Melear]]
*[[Thaddius al'Guy]]
*[[Adolla Ceryia]]

'''Guest:'''
*[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Livingston Michael Livingston]

'''Release date:'''
*October 5th, 2022

'''Synopsis:'''

In Episode 2, the hosts Doll, Dianna, and Thad welcome author Michael Livingston to the podcast to talk about the Wheel of Time and his new book 'Origins of the Wheel of Time'.

==Episode 2 Transcript==

'''00;00;10;29 - 00;00;54;00'''

'''Thad'''

Welcome to this edition of TarValon Talks. I'm one of your hosts, Thad, and here with me today are Doll and Dianna. In this episode, we have a very special guest for everyone today. He's a man of many things, a professor at the Citadel, a lover of A Knight's Tale, many scholarly articles under his belt, several Middle Eastern or Middle East translations, lots of academia and written fiction.

You may have also seen him on a TV show called Contact, which is all good, great and grand. But did you know he has Robert Jordan's desk? He's graciously putting together a book that explores the inspirations for many of the people and places in the Wheel of Time. The origins, you might say. We would like to welcome Michael Livingston to the podcast.

Michael, thank you for joining us today.

'''00;00;54;11 - 00;01;01;08'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

It's my pleasure. I'm very excited. I'm very excited. It's probably middle English translation stuff as opposed to the Middle East.

'''00;01;01;09 - 00;01;03;23'''

'''Thad'''

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I caught myself in the middle of saying it.

'''00;01;04;04 - 00;01;08;22'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

Yeah, my Arabic isn't so hot, but you asked me to talk 500 years ago, and I'm good to go.

'''00;01;09;03 - 00;01;17;03'''

'''Thad'''

Hey, you know, I've actually read a couple of your old, older academia articles. I really liked the one about the medieval maps that you did.

'''00;01;18;06 - 00;01;19;21'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

Oh, man. Yeah, yeah.

'''00;01;19;21 - 00;01;35;10'''

'''Thad'''

Yeah, yeah. I read that one like, a while ago, too. So I think one of the favorite things for me from that article specifically was your T.O. map section because I read the whole thing that you had talked about with the two sphere theory and I was like, “That's really interesting. I've never heard that before.”

'''00;01;35;21 - 00;02;37;16'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

Yeah. Yeah. No, that's like, that was graduate school for me. Yeah, a long time ago. I was a younger man back then. I might have even had hair. I'm not sure.

So TarValon.Net, like, has a special place in my heart because I came to the attention of the estate. I'd actually. I'd met. I'd met Jim and there's all kinds of stuff back there, but I really kind of came to the attention because when I gave the speech inducting Jordan into the South Carolina Academy of Authors, which was held here at the Citadel, and that was like the hardest speech I had ever given in my life. It was really rough.

And from that, I ended up giving a talk at Charleston Library Society about the impact, literary impact of Jordan and how it came to that. But who also came to that was a member of TarValon.Net who said, “Oh, this was incredible. Will you come talk at our..” I think it was the 10th anniversary celebration.

'''00;02;37;16 - 00;02;40;06'''

'''Doll'''

It was. Yeah, our 10th anniversary.

'''00;02;40;18 - 00;02;40;28'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

There you go.

'''00;02;40;28 - 00;02;59;05'''

'''Doll'''

It was in Charleston and we got to see, Harriet invited us to the house, and so we got to take a tour of the house. And yeah, you came and talked that night and it was, it was actually really great. I really enjoyed it. And I think I've been a fan ever since.

'''00;02;59;10 - 00;03;56;21'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

Thank you! But yeah, that, that really like, that really kind of like set in motion somehow this, like this is this is, this is the guy who does the thing or whatever and, and, and that and that. This is the guy who does the thing is part of how like this book is happening. So, and, and honestly, you know, it's ah, probably the reason the desk is here, right? You know, that they were like, where is the desk going to go? Well, the guy who does the thing and so, you know, okay, well, I'm the guy who does the thing. So here it is.

And yeah, that, you know, being invited to give that talk, you know, and the kindness with which I was welcomed, you know, everybody's so, so warm and, you know, like, who the hell is this guy? It was just like, this is a guy, like, let’s listen to him or whatever. And it was, so I have this, I have this place in my heart for TarValon.Net, like, y’all are cool.

'''00;03;57;00 - 00;03;57;24'''

'''Dianna'''

Good to have you here.

'''00;03;58;06 - 00;03;59;09'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

It's good to be here. Thank you.

'''00;04;00;12 - 00;04;12;24'''

'''Thad'''

If we want to get right into the questions, we can just go ahead and do that. Although I'll let everybody know ahead of time. '''There's no Nakomi questions'''. So if you're listening to the podcast for that, there's none of that here.

'''00;04;13;06 - 00;04;22;29'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

Yeah, I'm not allowed to talk Nakomi until the book’s out. But yes, I'll, all will be revealed at least insofar as I can reveal things.

'''00;04;23;09 - 00;04;26;16'''

'''Dianna'''

Well, don't worry. We won't we won't get into too many specifics.

'''00;04;27;11 - 00;04;28;13'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

Okay, cool, cool, cool.

'''00;04;28;23 - 00;04;36;18'''

'''Dianna'''

In fact, let's start as general as possible. Tell us about your history with the Wheel of Time. How did you start reading the series?

'''00;04;36;18 - 00;05;55;20'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

Uhh, yeah. So I started, I think, I keep saying it was when I was 15. I think that's right, because I know I couldn't drive yet. I was living in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and I uh, I liked fantasy books and I had some, some, some allowance money, rode my dirt bike across the prairie to the bookstore and there was this new release, The Eye of the World. And I thought, well, all right, you know, it's… looks interesting from the cover, I guess, or whatever, and sat down and started reading it and spent all my money because, ‘cause I you know, it was like a new release. Right? So it was crazy expensive, and… and yeah, I took it home and kind of fell in love with it right away.

And from then on, was just, every time a new book came out, I bought it, you know, even all the way through graduate school. And, and, yeah, it's kind of been a part of my life, you know, ever, ever since. Obviously, my relationship to it has changed a lot, you know, from being kind of like a fan to being, you know, whatever I am now not quite sure what that is, but I mean, I'm still a fan. But like, yeah, it's, it's been very, very strange, this experience, right?

'''00;05;56;19 - 00;05;58;23'''

'''Thad'''

But to put you on the other side of the veil, so to speak.

'''00;05;59;25 - 00;06;30;13'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

Yeah. I mean, I'm actually I'm literally recording this at his desk, right? So like, I'm sitting my, my hands are on his desk right now. I'm sitting in his chair. This is actually his office. This is his chair. Um, yeah, it's. It's been very... It's been wonderful. It's absolutely been wonderful. But it is definitely one of those kind of bewildering, like, “Is this real?” kind of things.

'''00;06;30;28 - 00;06;49;21'''

'''Thad'''

You know, it's funny that you mention that thing about the cover of The Eye of the World, like catching you, because most people I know that have started reading those books, that's that's generally what they say got them is “I saw the cover when I was at the bookstore and that's what reeled me in” and it’s been a bumpier, um it's been a fun ride ever since.

'''00;06;49;21 - 00;07;20;06'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

Yeah, you know, it was a terrific cover. I mean, it really was. The cover is really because I kind of had the inside cover as well, which is, which was also like, hey, this is this is interesting. Totally, totally cool. Yeah. I mean, there's some covers that weren't as good, but at that point, like, I was so sold, like, like I loved it.

But, but yeah that first cover meant so good. And the new release, that re-release that they've just done where they basically kind of took the same cover, but it's got like a white background and stuff now.

'''00;07;20;06 - 00;07;23;06'''

'''Thad'''

Oh the 30th anniversary one I think.

'''00;07;23;06 - 00;08;25;11'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

Yeah. So tight, like so tight I, I love it, I love it. It's so cool. So yeah, I, I was just captivated and the, and the first, you know, I read the first two chapters I think… the prologue and the first chapter, in the store they had like those big comfy cushy chairs and I just like sat down and, and lost an hour of my life and I was like, Oh, you know, gonna lose a lot more than that pretty soon.

So yeah, it was, it was it was just a cool, a cool start to a story. And, you know, at that point, I could already see, I mean, I was 15 years old or whatever, you know, you could see that, that Jordan was doing stuff with history and with myth. You could, even in those first two chapters, it was like “He's playing with some stuff here”, and that obviously is kind of like what has led ultimately to this book, which is about that, you know, about what he's what he's doing with it.

'''00;08;25;29 - 00;08;31;21'''

'''Doll'''

Right? So if you were part of Randland, where do you see yourself?

'''00;08;33;07 - 00;09;02;11'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

Oh, okay. So like I know I should say something like Lan, right? You know, like, like badass. Right. You know, be like, oh, you know, totally awesome. I mean, I guess like I saw it on the wall behind me, uh, but, you know, as I'm getting old, so I feel like that's probably those days have passed me probably Loial, you know, I mean, that kind of like, you know, I'm going to I'm going to keep keep track of the history, you know, be a part of things.

'''00;09;02;11 - 00;09;04;12'''

'''Thad'''

Always got a book in your pocket.

'''00;09;04;12 - 00;09;33;09'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

Yeah, got a book in my pocket. I'm doing some research, you know, like, yeah, we got to we got to have this fight, you know. But also after the fight's done, I really want to talk about that fancy arch over there. I've never really seen that architecture before. That I think that's probably that's probably me. That's probably just trying to, you know, trying to record things and trying to keep track of it all.

But still a little bit there. Yeah, it'd probably be something like that. I mean, I wish I could say it was something more grand, but.

'''00;09;33;20 - 00;09;42;09'''

'''Doll'''

I think that's a great place to be because I love Loial and he's just awesome. And somebody has to be the historian.

'''00;09;42;09 - 00;09;43;02'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

Somebody’s gotta be, that’s right.

'''00;09;43;11 - 00;09;45;00'''

'''Thad'''

Who doesn't love Loial?

'''00;09;45;00 - 00;09;46;24'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

Yeah, that's right. I mean, he's so good. He's so good.

'''00;09;46;29 - 00;10;01;09'''

'''Dianna'''

Well, he's beloved. And that is essentially what you're doing is he was what the recorder the historian for Rand’s journey and the journey of all of our heroes and. In Origins you are recording the journey that Robert Jordan went on to write these books.

'''00;10;01;09 - 00;10;03;23'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

Yeah, yeah.

'''00;10;03;23 - 00;10;04;22'''

'''Dianna'''

That’s essentially what you did.

'''00;10;05;12 - 00;11;07;08'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

Yeah, that makes me really like weirdly nervous. I mean, you know, it is, it is a weird thing how much how much, like, weight I, I feel with all of this. And I actually had a long conversation with Brandon Sanderson during the process of this, you know, talking with him. And we were talking a lot of stuff that was just like, you know, for the book. But then I was also like, dude, how do you handle it? You know, like, how do you like just, you know, what do you… like, from the other side? You've been doing it for a while, like, like give me some pointers and stuff because yeah, it is kind of it is kind of strange feeling like, like you're holding a little bit of that of that mantle for somebody that can no longer hold it for themselves and somebody you know that that was such a big important part of your life, you know, and you know, as an important part of other people's lives.

But but yeah, I've certainly I've done my best. That’s what I’ll say. Done my best.

'''00;11;07;12 - 00;11;11;28'''

'''Dianna'''

Talk us through that. How did you learn that you were being tapped to write the Wheel of Time Origins?

'''00;11;13;19 - 00;13;54;27'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

So I learned in an email from Harriet in May 2021. So this the idea, in some ways the idea for this goes way back. There had been a… a plan for me to do a sort of biography of Jim, Robert Jordan, and that for all sorts of reasons, like we weren't ready for it and it just like we weren't, we decided not to do it.

And so like that was kind of there. And then I was actually my, my, my current agent, Paul Stevens, who was the person who was the editor at Tor, who bought my book series, Shards of Heaven. But then he became my agent. He was the agent or sorry, the editor who represented Tor for Wheel of Time. So he knew everybody very, very well.

And yeah, we were just in a conversation and he said, you know, you should do a book on the Wheel of Time. And I said, “Well, you know, we kind of talked about doing one before and, you know, just didn't feel like people were ready to do it.” And he said “Ah, maybe you should talk, maybe you should ask Harriet again. You know, like just ask her.”

And, and so I kind of put together like a like “this is what I want to do” and sent it with the assumption that she would, you know, not want to do it. And, you know, because of what I was asking, because I was asking for something kind of big, right, I want access to everything.

And yeah, she wrote back an email and it was magnificent. The first line was just, it was like, “Dearest Mike.” (laughter) And then she said, “I'd love you to do this book.” And then she proceeded to tell me that she'd already talked to Tor about it. She had already talked, like it, like everybody knew at that point.

It was like, like, “Yeah, I want you to do this book. And also, you know, like the publisher wants it and they want it by this date. And we're going to arrange this and that.” like, oh, like that went from 0 to 100 really fast. So yeah, it was, it was in the end it was an email and, and yeah, they were, they were incredibly gracious. Everybody was incredibly gracious and gave me access to like anything I wanted, anyone I wanted to talk to at any time. You know, I had the call list for, you know, for anybody for, you know, if I want to talk to Tom Doherty, the publisher of Tor. Yeah. Here's his number calling whatever you want.

'''00;13;54;27 - 00;13;56;04'''

'''Thad'''

How much did you actually utilize that list?

'''00;13;56;12 - 00;15;45;14'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

I used everything. I talked to everybody and some of them multiple times because, you know, look, this there's only one shot. You know, I want to get it right. And the nightmare scenario is that I at the end, look back and wish that I had done whatever, right? You know, that I had gone, you know, stayed that extra half hour at the archive or whatever it was.

And so like from the beginning, I was like, I'm like, I am not going to face that in the future. Like I am going to have put every ounce of effort that I can into this. I'm going to talk to everybody until they hate me for talking to them. Like, I'm, like, I'm going to read every scrap. It was it was really intense. It was really intense. And so, yeah, I did. I availed myself of everybody.

And what was amazing about it is, is nobody hated me for it. I fully expected them to be like you. “You just stop like stop bothering us.” And instead it was, it was like, “Yeah, like, what more do you want?” And I'm like, God, nothing right now but in 10 minutes, I might. I might call you back and we'll see.

So, yeah, it was the other everybody was really, really super and, and yeah, just the opportunity to have full access to, you know, to all the notes, right? There's, there's a notes that are on public display, you know, here in Charleston, at the College of Charleston. But there's more stuff. And to have to have all of it and everybody was pretty special. Hope that answers your question.

'''00;15;46;01 - 00;15;46;18'''

'''Thad'''

Oh, yeah.

'''00;15;46;19 - 00;15;49;01'''

'''Dianna'''

Yes. 100%. Above and beyond.

'''00;15;49;25 - 00;16;08;14'''

'''Thad'''

Yeah, definitely. But knowing that characters and places are based on real world myths, in your research for the Origins of the Wheel of Time, did you come across anything while you were researching a character that made you, you know, realize, “Hey, I've done this in other academia research?”

'''00;16;08;29 -00;18;56;11'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

Yeah, it did. So, yeah. So my like main claim to fame, I guess internationally is like as a, a military historian and, and this was, I wouldn't say like THE driving force intellectually for Jordan, but it was like absolutely a huge part of his intellectual interest was military history. And so, like, I knew a lot of that stuff was going to be there and it was really, REALLY cool to, to like to get into that, right. And see, all right. You know, for this for this battle, like the battle of Malden, for instance. Right? So like there is a there is a battle of Malden, like historically, there's a historical battle of Maldon, which has a amazing, it's fragmentary, but it's amazing old English poem associated with it, which is which is just cool. It's like an old English poem that I've translated and stuff because it's because fricking cool.

And so like, like I knew it, but I knew, look he didn't, his battle of Malden is different from the battle of Maldon, and it's not a spelling thing. Like they are fundamentally different battles right. So he's he's clearly he knows about the battle of Maldon, but has chosen not to redo the battle of Maldon, but he is using the name. But, you know, so what has he done with, you know, the battle of Maldon, you know, like in the end, like, what has he made? Well, it's most of the battle of Crécy, which I've run several books about because I'm like totally into the battle of Crécy. And so and just a book come out in July I think it was my new book on the battle of Crécy.
And so yeah, like seeing okay here's where he's using Crécy, right? But here's where he got that name. He got it from Maldon. And that happens sort of constantly this this constant, you know, him making contact with the world that I do, you know, in my day to day was was really strange. Like, I mean, really cool. But, like, it sort of gives you shivers sometimes when you, you know, you're like, I was I was I was teaching that this morning. Like, what? Like, what's what's going on? You know, now that I'm and now I'm writing about Jordan doing this in the Wheel of Time, it's really neat to have that. And he did that in ways large and he did that in ways very, very small.

'''00;18;57;29 - 00;18;59;01'''

'''Doll'''

That's really interesting.

'''00;19;00;11 - 00;20;13;12'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

Yeah. And I've tried I've tried to in the book... So I have a I have a word count that I like, that I couldn't make the book as long as I could like, it had it had to be a certain length. And so, like, within that was like, well, I want to give as much a flavor for what's happening here as possible.

And so, you know, I've, I've, I've noted some things that were like very small, you know, it's kind of like in a sense, I don't want to say they don't matter. Obviously, they matter to us. We're fans of this stuff, but aren't like, “Oh my God, it's that huge thing,” you know, it's like a little thing. And but you know, he was doing stuff with that little thing, but then he's also doing stuff with this big stuff.

So like trying to sort of give you a sense of, of how his mind worked and how he constructed things and why he was constructing it that way was really tremendously important to me. And so, yeah, it did end up reflecting a lot back on, like, on my work and you know, it was just...

'''00;20;15;00 - 00;20;16;03'''

'''Thad'''

How giddy were you?

'''00;20;16;16 - 00;20;44;20'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

Well, I was giddy. It was, you know, somebody said during this process there was somebody and I, I won't say who it is and I don't know why they would not want me to say that, but I didn't ask them if I could quote them, so I won't. But somebody said, you know, they said, “You realize you're the only person going to write this book and, you know, the only person who who can who can grasp everything that he had.”

And I was like, “I don't I'm not sure I like that idea that…there’s no one in particular like that,” you know, like that's that's kind of strange, but I mean,

'''Dianna'''

No pressure.

'''00;21;01;23 - 00;21;31;19'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

It's yeah, yeah, yeah. It was kind of weird, like, oh, you know what? If I get hit by a bus tomorrow, does the work never get done? Like, that's not good, but. But it was just these constant points of contact that, you know, the teeniest little thing that he had that he kind of left as a clue or whatever as was, I know what that is, like. That's weird. It's weird that I know what that is, like. That's why the hell do I know what that is, you know? And it enabled things to, to come together. And, you know, what I hope is going to really people are really, really going to love that. People are really going to enjoy to see this this side of things.

'''00;21;33;00 - 00;21;43;04'''

'''Thad'''

I definitely enjoyed the small details, a lot of stuff like you'll see a name mentioned here and you're just like, I know what that you know, I know what that is. And I don't even, you know, follow it like you do.

'''00;21;44;16 - 00;22;07;29'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

Yeah. I mean, it's cool. It's cool to know things and Jordan was he knew so much stuff and like, it's all in there and, you know, and his life is in there. And I, you know, got a lot on that, too. You know, his life was in there. And, you know, where he'd been, the people he knew. It's it's wild.

'''00;22;08;16 - 00;22;21;01'''

'''Doll'''

It's really fascinating. Like, I'm not huge on the military stuff, so I miss a lot of it. So it'll be interesting to read, you know, what I don't know because I don't know that I don't know it.

'''00;22;21;01 - 00;22;38;09'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

Well, I, I, I wrote the book in the most, you know, kind of like accessible way possible, right? Like not as a, like not as a specialist or, you know, you don’t have to be a military historian because then, like, you know, what I'm getting into.

'''00;22;38;17 - 00;22;41;17'''

'''Doll'''

I have a basic grasp of it, but I don’t know the details.

'''00;22;41;26 - 00;22;42;29'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

Right? Yeah. Yeah.

'''00;22;43;01 - 00;22;54;10'''

'''Thad'''

From, from what I read, from what I understood, he encapsulated kind of being in the field of battle, what it felt like compared to like, you know, a Hollywood video or Hollywood movie of it or something.

'''00;22;54;10 - 00;22;54;20'''

'''Doll'''

Yeah.

'''00;22;55;11 - 00;23;24;08'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

Yeah, Hollywood. But they're terrible. They're terrible. Yeah. No, he does. He does a great job. And, you know, a lot of it comes from his own war experience. Which I do, which I do talk about in the book. So the, you know, one of the first chapters is, you know, basically a biography of Robert Jordan and, you know, what he had experienced and been through because it is part of the books, it’s part of what he created.

'''00;23;24;08 - 00;23;41;17'''

'''Dianna'''

So kind of on the flip side of that, what's something that you learned or that you were surprised by that you learned when you were working on the book and you can be as general or specific as possible, not trying to get you to talk about certain characters.

'''00;23;41;17 - 00;26;55;18'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

I can tell you absolutely of the things that are in the book. I can tell you absolutely. The thing that surprised me the most, without question. And it's, and it surprised me because it surprised all of us.

So he refers to the staple crop of the Aiel is “zemai” and like it's like look it's the word it's it's it's “corn” is what it is, right, which is “maize”, M A I Z, ZED E for any people north of the border listening it.

So like he scrambled the letters. That's what I thought. If you just scramble the letters of maize to make zemai and, and like it, it actually kind of like bugged me because this is not how he normally did things. This is, this is like a very unusual that this would be the case, but it's obvious that's the case.

And so so I wrote that this was the case. Right. And talked about, you know, what's going on here. And this is you know, this is really maize. And they make oosquai with it, which of course, is whiskey. And Jordan was a big fan of whiskey, as am I. So like, that was fun. And I was like, oh, this is cool.

And, and look, every… like, everybody read it. Everybody was like, “Yep, nailed it.” And then I got an email like the book is done basically like it’s done, and I get an email from Maria who's read the book at this point, like five, six times and, and Maria writes me and says, “Yeah. So I was watching Jeopardy last night and on Jeopardy there was a question about the scientific name for maize and the scientific name for maize is “Zea mays.” And I think that's where he got it from.” And I'm like, “Oh yeah, obviously that's where he got it from.” Like, that's yes. And like and so now it does in fact fit with this is how he did things and now it actually fits.

Instead of being like the one because up to that point, like this is the one anomaly to his practice of doing things and instead it wasn't an anomaly and he'd actually like, but he spelled it so it was re scrambled maize, which he probably thought was hilarious and like this hilarious like Easter egg joke that he had for himself.

And like just because Maria happened to be watching Jeopardy! that night, they happened to have a question about this. She happened to have just read that entry that afternoon. So it was like fresh in her head and as like the kicker to the whole damn thing. The host of Jeopardy was, of course, Brandon Sanderson's former roommate.

'''00;26;55;26 - 00;26;57;02'''

'''Doll'''
Oh, Ken Jennings, yeah.

'''00;26;57;13 - 00;26;58;05'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

It was Ken Jennings yeah.

'''00;26;58;05 - 00;26;58;26'''

'''Thad'''

Oh, man.

'''00;26;59;10 - 00;27;03;02'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

And so I'm like, well, okay.

'''00;27;03;02 - 00;27;04;29'''

'''Thad'''

That's the universe giving a sign right there.

'''00;27;05;03 - 00;27;31;21'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

The Wheel turns in mysterious ways, like, all right, let me go change that, change that entry. So, yeah, that one is like of the things that are in the book that's the thing that, that like most surprised me because it was just and again, it surprised all of us like, you know, Harriet had read it, everybody had read it. Everybody was like, “That's how it is.” And then by chance, lightning struck. And yeah, well, I was wrong. I was 100% wrong. And I'm so happy I'm wrong. Like it's so great.

'''00;27;31;21 - 00;27;50;00'''

'''Dianna'''

I'm so glad that you did this book to give him the credit for all of those little things that I'm sure he slipped in there that we as fans like kind of noticed but may not know for sure. And now we will just have them confirmed. That's what I'm most excited for, is to see the little things that he dribbled in here and there.

'''00;27;51;01 - 00;27;55;27'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

Yeah, he was a he was a clever guy. He was a clever guy for sure. Yeah.

'''00;27;56;09 - 00;28;07;03'''

'''Doll'''

So I don't know if that actually answers this next question or maybe there's another one, but is there anything, any particular subject that was the longest it took you to research?

'''00;28;08;23 - 00;28;12;08'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

The longest that it took me to research. Oh, man.

'''00;28;13;03 - 00;28;15;18'''

'''Doll'''

Not including random Jeopardy.

'''00;28;16;06 - 00;29;31;09'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

Yeah, random jeopardy. Like things just popping up. So I don't think I can say, oh, I'll say this. Okay, I'll say this. Um, there were a couple of things that I, I knew he had took on from somewhere, and I just like for the life of me, could not figure them out. And, and it was and like days like just constant like what? Sleepless nights trying to figure out what what he had done with something. There were a couple of those and, you know, in some degrees, those are the most fun.
The others, others, I spent a lot of time researching not because it was hard to know what he did, but because I fell down the rabbit hole like, you know, because he's dealing this like such a variety of stuff.

So I got like when it, like when it comes out, Aludra’s entry. So I adore her. I think she's awesome.

'''00;29;31;16 - 00;29;32;25'''

'''Thad'''

She's one of my favorites.

'''00;29;33;06 - 00;29;35;28'''

'''Dianna'''

She’s so cool.

'''00;29;35;28 - 00;30;56;22'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

Yeah, she's awesome. So her entry is not very long. I mean, because I only get so much space, right? I can’t just go on and on about these things. I'm just “here's the information, like move on.” So like her entry in the glossary is not huge, half a page or something, but the like that, like the, the story that I, that I tell you about, about where her name comes from. Like I kind of knew that going in, but I bet I wasted a full day just because it's just a crazy story about like, who she's based on kind of thing. And like, not, I didn't like, need to spend a day researching that for what I wrote. It was just like, this is cool. Like, we just keep reading about this, like, and I was just gone and then I'm like, “God, that's not good. I should not be spending that much time on like, I wrote the intro this morning. I'm done. Like, what am I doing? Why am I still…”, like, because it's awesome. And I like to think that actually that is something that would have pleased him very much, that he would have really enjoyed somebody, first of all, figuring out like, “Oh, you got that name. Are you kidding? Really? You put that in there?” and then that they got sort of captivated by history.

'''00;30;56;25 - 00;30;57;07'''

'''Doll'''

Mmhm.

'''00;30;57;21 - 00;31;38;20'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

And we're, like I said, kind of down the rabbit hole like, and we're gone for a while, you know, like, like I like to think that he would have enjoyed that because, because yeah. I mean I was, I was sitting right, literally right where I am right now. Like doing that. And, and yeah, at a certain point I did a lot of talking to, to him while I was writing this book.

And yeah, a lot of was like, like, “What are you doing to me? Like, Oh, come on, man.” Like, I got, I got to work more, you know, like, and yeah. So there were, there were entries that took a long time to figure out. And there were entries that took a long time just because that's cool stuff. Like it was cool stuff that he had in there.

Good question.

'''00;31;38;20 - 00;31;42;26'''

'''Thad'''

When you have complete, unfettered access to all of this information, I'd be doing the same thing.

'''00;31;44;22 - 00;31;58;06'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you got. Yeah. (laughing) Because the and the information is not well organized. I should say.

'''00;31;58;14 - 00;32;00;23'''

'''Doll'''

Oh, I’ve been to the carriage house like….

'''00;32;00;23 - 00;33;14;10'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

Anybody who’s dealt with the notes knows it's bad. Yeah. It's not, it's not super good and, and like the, the archive is not well arranged or whatever. And that's, that's nobody's fault. That's just the way that, that he kept his files, for instance, is like he knew he knew where the heck things were. But, you know, it's a bit like one of my great friends and colleagues doesn't organize his library, you know, like, like, you know, I mean, we're both historians. You know, mine are, you know, like this section is Hundred Years of war. You know, this section is my, you know, middle English stuff. You know, this is like this is just that's just where I put that book. You know, like, like that's not that's not organized, man, you know? But if you ask him, he knows where everything is. “Well, it's the book that's over there, you know, and it's it's next to that green one.” You know, “Why are those next to each other?” “That’s just where I put them.” Like, that's kind of the way Jordan was with his own notes is he knew where stuff was. And so for us trying to like find something in it, it can be a little bit daunting. It helps to digitize them all.

'''00;33;14;10 - 00;33;27;07'''

'''Thad'''

Oh, I'm sure. Absolutely. So when working on this project, did you by chance come to a new appreciation for any segment of the Wheel of Time series that you may not have liked as much before?

'''00;33;27;28 - 00;35;49;29'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

That's a good question. I came to a better appreciation of early Nynaeve, you know, when I first read the books. And obviously, you know, it's kind of like a weird question. I mean, I was like a 15 year old kid, a 15 year old male kid, like, just Nynaeve, I was like, “What is this?” like, what's going on here? Like, it's just I was mostly annoyed by her, like, stop tugging your hair. Like, it's just what is going... it just didn't do anything for me. Now her character changes drastically over the course of the books, which is one of things that Jordan was so phenomenal at, is, you know, character arcs and development and so so she'd not only change, and I obviously I grew as a human being and I grew to appreciate her, but to go back and see how central she was from the like the moments of inception, like that she was there. I mean, so many other main characters that people think of as like “That is such a central character.” No. They didn't exist, like, but she did. She did like from the beginning. And to see why that was and how deeply that was, I was, it was really kind of humbling for me. I was sort of like, you know, looking back at my younger self like, you idiot, you know, like, I mean, try to be nice to yourself, you know, I was like young kid, whatever. But, you know, I'm like, dude, like, how did you miss the boat so much? You know? And and so, yeah, I really do. You know, since obviously in the course of all this to read books again, how many times now? But, you know, looking at it through that lens of, you know, this is what I know he was doing from the beginning and then reading what he's what he's doing from the beginning, you know, in the actual actual books, that was very, very cool to me to really recognize that and and get such a better sense of, of what's going on, like behind, the strings behind the scenes, you know. So definitely I would I would say it was Nynaeve, was the the thing that I, I really kind of like kicked myself for not seeing as powerfully as I do now.

'''00;35;50;09 - 00;35;57;11'''

'''Dianna'''

That's so exciting. I, like,...

'''00;35;57;11 - 00;35;57;18'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

Yeah.

'''00;35;57;23 - 00;36;26;16'''

'''Dianna'''

Also was struggling with Nynaeve, especially when I was younger. She was so annoying. Um, so annoying. But I've talked to other friends who are huge Nynaeve fans and they have brought up to me like, “No, but she's so central to Rand's journey, she is essential to her answer, and she sets this this role in his life that really helps him,” and that's made me have a greater appreciation for her as a character.

So I'm excited to see how she was central to the process.

'''00;36;28;24 - 00;37;20;22'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

I mean, if she does is fine. You know, there's no there's no wrong way to fan or whatever. But yeah, certainly for me, I definitely have a different, a different view on her than, than I once did and, and, and yeah. Seeing, seeing that the notes and I try and talk about that, you know, in the book obviously, you know, and talk about how she developed even, even before, you know, before he starts writing the books like he's he's thinking about, you know, I mean, he's thinking about the books, right? But Eye of the World hasn't been begun yet. He's just grappling with, you know, “I'm going to do this thing. I don't really know what it is.” And she's already like, there. That's pretty cool. I think so, yeah. You'll like those pages, I think.

'''00;37;20;29 - 00;37;22;01'''

'''Thad'''

Oh, absolutely.

'''00;37;23;13 - 00;37;31;10'''

Dianna
So excited.

Do you have a favorite real world reference or parallel from the Wheel of Time?

'''00;37;31;10 - 00;38;01;26'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

Yeah, I do. I do and it's totally self-serving, or not self-serving, but self-referential. So where I'm sitting here at the at the desk here in his chair, I have a window beside me and out that window I can see the White Tower and I really like that. So, you know, he went to the Citadel, which is where I am, where I teach.

'''00;38;02;27 - 00;40;01;13'''

'''Micheal Livingston'''

And and this is where the White Tower is. So the White Tower is on campus. It is there's there are lots of white towers in the world. But, you know, when he was making White Tower, he was thinking of it's called Padgett Thomas Barracks and it’s literally right there. And like when I first came to the Citadel for my job, like I like I did, I walked past it I was like “That’s interesting. Like, hmm, I wonder if there's a like…” and this sort of like events you felt yeah there's that gets the white tower like dude yeah that's literally the White Tower like that's cool so so is definitely my favorite, but that's like I get to see it everyday. So, so yeah, that makes me, that makes me happy and, and it makes me smile because of so many things that he's playing with. The Citadel had been an all male school, military college, and of course, the White Tower that he makes, like flips all that around. Like he loved doing things like that. He he just, like, thought they were. It was fun. Like, this is this is so, you know, cool to do this. And if anybody realizes what I've done, they're probably going to laugh like and and they also might recognize that this is also but there's a point to it like that. It's it is kind of, you know, like, like funny or, I don't know, funny is the right word. But like, you know, like clever or whatever that he did this. But also like, like there is a point like, like making this all male reference, an all female reference, like, like there's a reason for that. And it's central to the work of the Wheel of Time. Like it's central to what he is doing in this entire series. And so yeah, that one’s my favorite. And it’s right there, so.

'''00;40;01;25 - 00;40;07;16'''

'''Thad'''

It must be nice looking out the window every day.

'''Dianna'''

It's so cool.

'''Thad'''

Yeah.

'''00;40;08;10 - 00;40;44;13'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

It's, you know, but you got to work, right? You know, it's like, I can't just sit here and just be like, I'm touching his desk. Like, I have to work. Like, I got to get to bed, I got to get things done. But is it's hard not to sometimes because it I mean, look, I'm looking at it right now like, you know, like I know where his elbows laid, you know, because of the way the finish is worn, you know, like, because you're sitting there like, do my elbows go there. They shouldn't go there. That shouldn't be like like. Yeah, it's, it's very strange.

'''00;40;44;13 - 00;40;45;06'''

'''Thad'''

Absolutely.

'''00;40;45;10 - 00;40;46;10'''

'''Dianna'''

I have chills hearing it.

'''00;40;46;10 - 00;40;48;01'''

'''Micheal Livingston'''

It's it's weird. It's weird.

'''00;40;48;01 - 00;41;06;27'''

'''Thad'''

So so why don't we go a little bit north from there? So Arafel is one of the countries that we only get small scraps of information about culture wise and fashion wise. So is there any chance some of Robert Jordan's notes have more info on Arafel that'll make it into the book?

'''00;41;06;27 - 00;42;10;28'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

Yes, not a lot. Not a lot. But I do have an intro on Arafel. So the, you know Arafel does get its name from the Bible. If you don't know, Genesis 14:1. Genesis 14:1 references a king of Shinar whose name is Amraphel. That's where he gets Arafel from. That's also where he gets another name from. If you follow the , if you follow the bouncing dot and of course culturally it's getting it's echoing the step cultures and and the capital of Shol Arbela comes from the Persian city of Arbela. So yeah he's he's pulled together kind of three major strands there. You know, to, to get the basis of it. Yeah. So, so yes, there's, there you go. There's a little bit of a little bit of knowledge dropped. Yeah. But he didn't, he didn't have like a, like a book of Arafel or anything like that.

'''00;42;12;04 - 00;42;31;00'''

'''Doll'''

Our last question is specific for our site, at TarValon.Net we do a Tar Valon to Tear challenge every year and we like to make sure that our mileage is super accurate. And we know the new maps have come out. What is the exact distance between Tar Valon and Tear in either miles or kilometers?

'''00;42;31;24 - 00;45;23;15'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

No idea. I have no idea.(laughter) Honestly, no idea. Whatever number you're using is dead accurate as far as I'm concerned. Yeah.

So I mean, the new map doesn't change the dimensionality of the Westland. It changes in some fairly considerable ways the rest of the world, but does not change that. So yeah, whatever number you're working with is, is probably right.

I never found a, like a, like a master scale that I can sort of apply. Part of that is intentional on his part. He joked about this a lot in answers to people where they would say, well, you know, “What about this? What about that? The information on this?” And he'd say, well, you know, “Look, we're getting this all through the filter of different culture and we're getting it through a filter of, you know, what these people know and how it's been handed down to us.” And so it's all kind of garbled, you know, like that wasn't just like an easy way out of answering a question. Like, that's part of how he built the whole thing. It's actually just the honest truth and so that applies to the maps as well.

And I don't talk about this in the book, but I'll talk about it now. If you look across all of the maps, maps from Eye of the World to the maps in Memory of Light, there are inconsistencies like, like you can't you can't make them all work. Something has to give somewhere along the line that didn't bother him. I don't know that it was directly intentional like the he gave like “Fudge this a little bit this way so it's kind of wrong.” I don't have like a smoking gun that he did that but if he was aware of it happening, he was like, cool. Like let's, let's leave it that way, because it can't quite work because it's coming from memory like and this is, you know, this is something that, you know, that is how we deal with history, right? This is what I do every day, is try and figure out what happened. Right. You know, so I'm in the battle of Crécy, as an example, that battle’s fought in 1346. I have 81 sources literally on my desk that talk about the battle. None of them match. So like what happened? I like like what actually happened, like who's right? And I have to be in this position of trying to sort through that in order to make the best argument I can, backed by the most information I can, you know, that makes the most sense I can about what happened.

And that's how anything in history is. Right. You know, none of us has full knowledge about I mean, anything that even happened to ourselves, like, frankly. Right. We're like there's like this constant missing information. And he wanted to make that reality part of the Wheel of Time, because the Wheel of Time was reality. Yeah, it's intrinsic to it. So. So, no, I don't I don't know how many miles or kilometers or leagues or.

'''00;45;23;16 - 00;45;24;28'''

'''Thad'''

Spans.

'''00;45;24;28 - 00;45;47;29'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

You know, whatever floats your boat. Yes. Spans like, whatever floats your boat. That's that's what it is. It's a good distance, I'll tell you that. It's a good distance. It's a haul. It's a haul. I wouldn't want to walk it. I definitely would not because that's that's a long way to walk. That's what I would do. Good question, though.

'''00;45;48;06 - 00;45;54;16'''

'''Dianna'''

Those are the questions that we have for you. But do you have anything that you want to ask us about?

'''00;45;54;16 - 00;46;13;21'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

I'm scared to because, look, you know, if I asked you, like, you know, what is the thing you most want to know? And then I didn't give you that in the book. Like, I'm just going to feel miserable for the next weeks until the book comes out. So I would hope that when you all read the book, number one, that you cry.

'''00;46;13;22 - 00;46;22;17'''

'''Dianna'''

I will cry. I can confirm I cried at your talk at JordanCon, I cry at everything Wheel of Time related, I guarantee you I will cry.

'''00;46;22;20 - 00;46;24;22'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

You cried at my talk at JordanCon?

'''00;46;25;02 - 00;46;27;04'''

'''Dianna'''

I love the Wheel of Time so much, I cry every time.

'''00;46;29;22 - 00;46;32;06'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

Like like. Like this last JordanCon? You cried?

'''00;46;32;09 - 00;46;35;06'''

'''Dianna'''

Yeah. Yeah, a little.

'''00;46;36;25 - 00;46;39;01'''

'''Micheal Livingston'''

That's so sweet.
Oh.

'''00;46;40;02 - 00;47;08;26'''

'''Micheal Livingston'''

Yeah. You're going to cry. Yeah, you're going to bawl. You're going to be gone. I mean, because I cried, you know? So, like, if I did you better, you know, like come on people. Yeah. The thing that got me was Harriet because she wrote the foreword for the book and I didn't know that was happening. So I'm sitting here on my desk and I get an email from Tor and they say, “Harriet's forward came in. Can you, can you just double check it to make sure, like, look, you know, it looks okay or whatever, whatever.” And then I’m like, “Her what?” And then like what? What happened then? And so and so. Yeah, I read it and I cried and I was powerless. It was kind of just personal. I mean, she's very kind to me and, and then when it was announced that I was doing this, I wrote a I wrote a letter to the readers, that's in the book. So, so hopefully that makes people cry. That’s be cool.

But but yeah, just beyond that, the story of his life and of course, about his death, I think is going to move people. And it certainly did me, there's some stuff in there that that nobody has known about and it's going to be, is going to be captivating to people that, you know, again, I was kind of always in this, you know, do I do I keep, do I keep this in the books or, you know, do I if I lose that, I can put this in the book, you know, like like what am I going to fit in the box? And and there was stuff that I was like, this is going in the box. And it may not be you know, somebody might have wished that I had one more entry in the glossary, but no, dammit, you're going to get this story. And I bloody well hope you cry.

And so, so yeah there's, there's stuff like that that I think is going to move people and I hope move people and, and I really just hope that the people walk away, you know, with a better side, better like, like people have a bad impression of Jordan because they don't. Obviously we all love it, but like a better appreciation, like like a richer appreciation of, of, of who he was and what he was doing and how he was doing it. And and that that, you know, informs, it doesn't have to change anything. It's just it's a, I think, a wonderful thing to see the fullness of the art that he was doing and to kind of really recognize that. So I'm just really hopeful that that's what people get out of the book. And that you cry. That too.

'''00;49;38;01 - 00;49;44;16'''

'''Thad'''

Well, hey, we're getting we're getting more Wheel of Time content in the year 2022. I can't… I'm I'm very happy about that.

'''00;49;45;26 - 00;51;01;05'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

Yeah. Well I'm glad, I'm really glad to hear that. There's some unpublished stuff in there, well a lot of them, there's thousands of unpublished words in there. I did, I did a word count at one point and that was and it was insane. It was thousands of unpublished words and, which again was one of those things like I kept asking and they kept saying yes. And and I'm like, I can't believe you're going to say you're going to say yes to this. You know, like I want to I want to publish this huge, like, chunk of this and you're okay. Like they kept saying, “Yeah, sure. Go ahead.” And that's neat. I mean, it was neat for me to see that. It is still neat for me as I've read it I don't know how many times and and that's and that's exciting to see for me.

And yeah, there's secrets that like Nakomi is in there, though honestly, like, look, nothing's going to nothing's going to match the hype, you know? I mean, look, people have been for years, like like there's literally there's literally no answer where everybody is going to be like that more than I ever expected. It's just not going be the case. I have to tell you.

'''00;51;01;05 - 00;51;02;17'''

'''Thad'''

You got to keep your expectations a little little tempered on it.

'''00;51;04;02 - 00;51;05;00'''

'''Micheal Livingston'''

Yeah, there's just there is...

'''00;51;05;10 - 00;51;06;20'''

'''Thad'''
I mean, I've been trying.

'''00;51;04;02 - 00;51;09;20'''

'''Doll'''

So people have had so many years to develop these wild theories that are just…

'''00;51;10;05 - 00;51;12;29'''

'''Thad'''

You know, it's it's just generation or two of who killed Asmodean.

'''00;51;37;05 - 00;51;13;27'''

'''Doll'''

It is.

'''00;51;14;19 - 00;52;20;21'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

Which which I talk about. You know, Nakomi is in there because, I'm trying to think how to explain this. Nakomi is in there because this is a story about how he was making the Wheel of Time because, because this is not a replacement for, or in addition to really, the Wheel of Time Companion. Right? That is all that is a book that is. I describe it as being in-world focus. Like it's just looking within and like, well, this is the story of, you know, this king or that part. Like it's it's all that like plot stuff. This is flipping completely around and looking outward, kind of at our world. So, like, you know, explaining who Nakomi is like identifying her, it wouldn't fit except that it does, is how I will say that like so, it made sense. It made sense to be in there. But it's not you're not going to get like, oh, here's all this stuff about this character and what their childhood was like or something like that. Like, it's not that, but, but hopefully what you're finding out is going to, yeah, you're going to be captivated.

'''00;52;20;21 - 00;52;21;29'''

'''Doll'''

Sounds very fascinating.

'''00;52;22;17 - 00;52;26;16'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

Yeah. Was for me,(laughter) was for me, was for me.

'''00;52;27;16 - 00;52;35;04'''

'''Thad'''

So how did you I guess how did you wrestle the reveal for this away from Sanderson? Because I think I remember you speaking about this at JordanCom.

'''00;52;36;11 - 00;54;18;18'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

No wrestling involved. He offered it to me. We were talking and I said, “Look, I have an entry on Nakomi. Do you want me to cut it?” Because, you know, he had promised that he would explain Nakomi on certain timeline basically. And the book will come out before that timer is up. And I said, “Look, you know, Brandon, I will, I'll cut it.” And he said, no. And in fact, then he said, he said, “You know, I'll, let me write something for you for it.” And so, so yeah we actually get in for the Nakomi entry is is actually Brandon is me and then kind of like I sort of like hand the microphone to Brandon and then you get Brandon's spiel.

You know, again, is one of these like the collaborative-ness of this, you know, there was there was like no hesitate for him. He was just like he was like, “No, you know, what would be better is why don't I just why not just write this thing and you put it in your book,” like, let's just do that.

And oh, okay. Like, I'm fine with that. Yeah. Like, do I owe you anything for that? Like, you know, and it's like, “No, just take it.” So yeah, you get, it's like two paragraphs or something from him talking about it and then a little bit from me. So I didn't have to wrestle it. He just that's just Brandon. Brandon is just a, Brandon is a cool dude we all know that, he really is a cool dude and he was so so gracious like because he's you know, he's got a lot going on in his own life and talking to me was not on that like list. And but as soon as he knew this was happening, he was like, “All right, you know, you got my you got my attention. Like, what do you what do you want to when you want to talk, how often do you wanna talk? Like, let's let's do it” so yeah, he's he's a great guy.

'''00;54;19;24 - 00;54;43;29'''

'''Doll'''

I think what strikes me the most is like having been involved with the Wheel of Time as long as I have, is that everybody involved is just as much a fan of it and it's just as interested in seeing the story be told as the readers are. It doesn't surprise me that they gave you so much access and that they were so gracious about everything because they want to hear these stories, too.

'''00;54;44;14 - 00;57;01;22'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

Yeah, I think I think you're right. And it is obviously very gratifying and I, you know, I mean, with the maps, you know, when they when I said, well, this is what I found means like the map and you'll hear all this.. By the time is airing people would know this story. You know, that there was there was this information in the maps and like, oh, so we're doing a map. And Tor was like, Yeah. And Harriet said, Yeah, we got a new map. And you know what? Elisa Mitchell should do it because she's the one who did the actual Westland map that everybody loves and so they got on the phone and alright, Elisa is doing the map, you know, and that that kept happening at every turn. Like the copy editor. The copy editor for my book is Robert Jordan's copy editor. Like that they made sure like who who touched the Wheel of Time touches this book. Like, that it will be like it will have that glow or whatever. And you know that I wasn't, like that’s stuff I wasn't asking for. I'm like, you know, I mean, obviously if there's going to be a copy editor involved, you know, but they're like, Oh, yeah, know, we got this person. I kind of got the impression like they were retired, like, I don't know, but I kind of got this impression like we actually convinced, you know, this person to do the copyediting ‘cause they’re the Wheel of Time copy editor, you know, and like. And they're thrilled to do it, you know, and having the same readers for the audio book, you know.

So we've got with the audio book is, is, it's the main readers that everybody knows and a little bit of me. I'm, I'm doing my recording I think on Thursday actually and, and Harriet, so it's yeah it's the four of us doing the audio book and again just because because people want it to be a part of it because they, as you said, kind of have this generous connection to it and everybody kind of felt like it was this like almost like a way of closure to everything. There was just this moving quality to the whole thing that I really I really hope shines through in the final product.

'''00;57;02;22 - 00;57;04;13'''

'''Dianna'''

I didn't know you’d be in the audio book for this, but now I know.

'''00;57;05;24 - 00;57;08;05'''

'''Thad'''

Yeah, I think I'm going to have to now knowing this.

'''00;57;08;14 - 00;58;57;12'''

'''Micheal Livingston'''

It was fun. It was fun to do. And as will make sense when you read the book, it was also a nightmare for the narrators, for Michael and Kate. They, she actually tweeted, we had a wonderful tweet exchange. And I this past week because she tweeted about how she had just finished reading her part of the origins book and like was like it never had so much trouble with something because of all the different languages and all pronunciations for things.

And I was like, I was like, sorry, not sorry. What are you gonna do? They had, it was nightmare fuel for them they what production wrote me, what they do on an audio book is they will send to the author, and I had to do this for Shard of Heaven, for the Crécy books, for history, for fiction , doesn't matter.They send you like, here's a list of all the words we don't know how to pronounce. And then, like, you either write up pronunciations or you like record them. And so, you know, it's the record pronunciations, and they're usually like, I don't know, a couple of pages long. This thing was, I was just, I don't, it was like six, 600-700 words. It was enormous. They were like, we got no idea. We got nothing like what you want us to do. And so yeah, I sat there and I recorded for like an hour or 2 hours or something like that, recording all these things. And it was also it was a conversation too in, you know, I'm like, well, this is, this is how I'm pronouncing it, but also kind of should be pronounced this way. But, you know, in your audio books previously you did this word this way and really like so we don't want to screw people. Like, so there's all this like negotiation of trying to figure out just how are we going to process one word, right? Which is going to take 2 seconds in the audio book. Right. But we're all like it's like we gotta get it as right as we can.

'''00;58;57;12 - 00;58;59;15'''

'''Thad'''

10 hours of deliberation for 2 seconds of audio.

'''00;59;00;24 - 00;59;41;01'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

Right, 10 hours of deliberation. My God, we got it like, because we know we know that like because we're like you, right? It's going to matter and people are going to be, you know what? But I pronounce it this way. Am I doing it wrong? You know, and this like and we also picked out that kind of in the end, sort of silly in a sense, because like whatever your head canon is great, like whatever.

But all of a sudden I'm on the like I'm not a fan now. I'm actually I mean, I'm again, I'm still a fan, but like, like now they're, they're asking me to make it like a, like a canon decision, like, like from now on canon will be what comes out of your mouth, Mike, so what is it, you know.

'''00;59;41;09 - 00;59;42;11'''

'''Doll'''

Now you're Team Jordan.

'''00;59;43;06 - 01;00;54;09'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

Yeah. And I'm like, like, oh, what do I do with that? Like, I don't know. So yeah, it was, it was, you know, lots of things like that are, are, were I mean, they were stressful, whatever. Right? But they are wonderful in they're in there because everybody has this dedication to to get it right, you know, for you all and to make this what it is for you. Right. You know, this is this is not a book that I wrote for me. I wrote this for you. And I wrote it to like, you know, I've been given this privilege of having access to all this. How can I make you feel a part of that? How can I make you part of that? How can I make you see what I see? How can I make it something that means something to you? And that was just like the constant refrain that was in my head. And I know was , everybody who was lined up behind me, you know, they were just kind of helping hold me up, right, and helping hold me to that standard. And hopefully helping me meet that standard because they understood what I was doing and why and believed in it. So I just, you know, fingers crossed it worked and you all and you all love it, I hope.

'''01;00;55;09 - 01;00;56;18'''

'''Doll'''

I'm sure we will.

'''01;00;57;17 - 01;00;58;29'''

'''Thad'''

No, no doubt about that.

'''01;00;58;33 - 01;00;59;35'''

'''Dianna'''

I'm sure we will.

'''01;01;00;04 - 01;01;02;08'''

'''Thad'''

I am, like, chomping at the bit to get my hands on it.

'''01;01;02;08 - 01;01;36;17'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

November 8th, November 8th, everybody. Preorders I love, let's get the best seller list y’all. Let's do it. It would be it'd be really it would really be cool if if that happened, I think it would sort of be a shot across the bow for a lot of people that, you know, the Wheel of Time isn't a past thing. It's a present thing. And we can continue to like keep this train rolling and continue to have that love. And with the other show coming out and everything, I think it's I think it's a great time to be a fan.

'''01;01;31;28 - 01;01;33;26'''

'''Doll'''

There are no endings to the Wheel of Time.

'''01;01;34;26 - 01;01;36;00'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

That's right. That's right.

'''01;01;35;06 - 01;01;41;09'''

'''Thad'''

But while there are no endings to the Wheel of Time, I think we have come to the ending of this podcast.

'''01;01;41;25 - 01;01;43;00'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

Alas, alas.

'''01;01;43;03 - 01;01;44;13'''

'''Doll'''

I’m so glad you picked up on that.

'''01;01;45;26 - 01;01;46;15'''

'''Micheal Livingston'''

So well done.

'''01;01;46;28 - 01;01;52;16'''

'''Thad'''

Michael. Thank you so much for joining us today and answering all the burning questions that we had prepared.

'''01;01;52;24 - 01;01;53;19'''

'''Micheal Livingston'''

It was my pleasure.

'''01;01;53;26 - 01;02;00;26'''

'''Thad'''

If you'd like. If you would like, please plug anything you'd like here. Upcoming books. Interesting articles you're writing. Sky's the limit.

'''01;02;01;03 - 01;03;11;06'''

'''Michael Livingston'''

Sky's the limit? Look, if you're into medieval history or you’re into military history, read my book on Crécy, “Crécy. Battle of five Kings.” It's awesome. I love it so much. And it's for and it's for upper audience kind of thing. So if you're really into that, do that. But otherwise, you know, look just y’all… Origins. Like love it, live it and, and, you know, when it comes out, you know, if you like it, you know, leave good reviews and stuff like, you know, it's it's easy to forget what a difference that makes right in in algorithms and in the eyes of publishers. And, you know, I mean, look, we don't know we don't know if this if this does really well, you know, I mean, there are other things that could be done. I will say that. And would there be an interest in doing that, like. Well, I would hope so. So, you know, you know, preorders, I love, reviews. Be kind of one another y’all,l just, just be nice to one another. You know, the world's rough hug each other, high fives, thumbs up.

'''01;03;11;19 - 01;03;28;09'''

'''Thad'''

Thank you for joining us for this special edition of TarValon Talks. We hope this interview has pushed you over the edge and now you're out there pulling up your favorite book website. Pre-ordering the book right now. But if you've already done so, get a friend to listen and get them to preorder the book as well.

==Episode Guide==

'''Next Episode'''

[[TarValon Talks Sounding of the Horn: NYCC 2022 Edition]]

'''Previous Episode'''

[[TarValon Talks Episode 1: The Wheel of Time on Amazon]]

[[Category: TarValon Talks]]

2023-09-11T16:29:28Z

Thaddius al'Guy: /* Episode 0 Transcript */

==Tar Valon Talks Episode 0: Introductions==

==General==
'''Hosts:'''
*[[Dianna Melear]]
*[[Thaddius al'Guy]]
*[[Adolla Ceryia]]

'''Release date:'''
*September 4th, 2022

'''Synopsis'''

In this episode, we introduce the hosts, talk about what the podcast is, and the community of TarValon.Net.

==Episode 0 Transcript==

[[Category: TarValon Talks]]

'''00;00;07;25 - 00;00;27;02'''

'''Doll Opening'''

Welcome to Tar Valon Talks, a new podcast brought to you by TarValon.Net. We started the show to talk about all things Wheel of Time. This short episode is to introduce you to the show, who we are, and some of our hosts for this season. Thank you for joining us and I hope you enjoy the show.

'''00;00;28;05 - 00;01;17;26'''

'''Doll Introduction'''

Hello. Welcome to Tar Valon Talks. My name is Susan. I'm known as Doll on TarValon.Net. I started reading the Wheel of Time,... Well I started reading it in high school, and then it took me a few years just to get through the world and I gave up. A few years later, I had surgery and I was recovering in bed and I got tired of trying to find something to read, so I told my husband that I need something longer to read.

So he plopped the first three books of the Wheel of Time in my lap, and said “You need to finish these now.”

So I read the first three books and then I read the next three books. And I think at that point I think it was Winter’s Heart had just come out. After that I read each new book as it came out, and I was looking for people to talk to about the books. So that's when I found TarValon.Net.

Now, I’d like to introduce my co-hosts, Thad and Dianna.

'''00;01;17;27 - 00;02;16;06'''

'''Thad Introduction'''
You can call me Thad. I've been a Wheel of Time fan for, I think, 20 something years at this point.

I picked it up in the mid to late nineties when I was just getting into middle school. I just kind of randomly picked it up off a shelf and was like, “This cover looks really neat.” And I think later that year my dad gave me the first book for my birthday.

And I think like you, it took me a little while to get through it because it was a very dense book compared to other stuff that I had been reading at the time. So once I got through that, I just picked up the Great Hunt and just kind of started tearing through it and I think about at that time, only Path of Daggers was out, so I got up to about Lord of Chaos around there before I had to take a break, because there's a lot going on in the Wheel of Time. And, you know, when you rush through it, when you're just like a teenager, it's kind of hard to process a lot of the stuff going on.

'''00;02;16;06 - 00;02;23;07'''

'''Doll'''

Alright, and Dianna, do you want to introduce yourself?

'''00;02;23;25 - 00;02;45;17'''

'''Dianna Introduction'''

Yeah. Hi, I'm Diana. I have also started reading the Wheel of Time when I was in high school.

My best friend and I were working as lifeguards together, our first job. She was a huge, real time fan and gave me the first book to get us through that summer together in a horrible job. And I poured through the first five books that summer and then kept reading over the course of that school year.

And I believe up to when Winter's Heart was out it was also around the time when I had picked it up. And then I remember just waiting for every single new book to come out. So I've been a fan for almost 20 years at this point.

'''00;03;12;21 - 00;03;19;13'''

'''Thad'''

So it looks like we're all pretty storied in our Wheel of Time history.

'''00;03;19;13 - 00;03;33;29'''

'''Doll'''

Yeah. So have you guys been involved in anything else with the Wheel of Time?

For myself, I know I worked for JordanCon since the first year and I briefly joined Dragonmount, but I don't think I ever really posted anything.

'''00;03;34;08 - 00;04;13;11'''

'''Thad'''

Yeah, I joined Dragonmount like ten years back, but I don't think I ever really posted.

Way, way, way, way back in the day, I was really, really active on the now defunct WoT Mania website. Like I used to, I spent all my free time on that website and after that went down, I don't think I really did anything in the Wheel of Time community up until JordanCon started happening because I'm super local to it. So I just kind of heard through local news that, hey, there's a Wheel of Time convention like 30 minutes away. So I went out to the old Embassy Suites in Alpharetta where they had the first JordanCon and I've been just about every year since.

'''00;04;13;27 - 00;04;53;05'''

'''Dianna'''

Yeah, I only really engaged with the fandom through the TarValon.Net Library. I would read the chapter summaries on the Library any time that I was doing a series reread and didn't want to read a particular section because I found it boring or irritating, but I, for whatever reason, kept myself very separate from the Wheel of Time fandom community for a long time until this most recent JordanCon and I went to JordanCon with one of my best friends and was like, “Why have I not been engaging with these people who are MY people?” And then joined TarValon.Net and have not looked back ever since.

'''00;04;54;16 - 00;05;00;28'''

'''Doll'''
Yeah, we get you at JordanCon, don’t we?.

'''00;05;01;16 - 00;05;02;21'''

'''Thad'''

That's how you guys got me.

'''00;05;02;28 - 00;05;08;10'''

'''Doll'''

Yeah, that. That's an interesting story. I think you should tell it.

'''00;05;08;10 - 00;06;25;24'''

'''Thad'''

So back in 2016, I was just milling about JordanCon in the evening, about to head home, cause I think all the panels were about done. They were just finishing up the dinner break when they have, you know, a couple of hours of break between panels and saw a bunch of people milling about outside of a room. And I didn't see anything on the panel break down for what was going on in that room, so I was just like, “I'll check it out, you know, and then I'll go home.”

So I go in with like, I think there was like 60 other people, it was a full room, standing room only basically. But I got a chair in the back corner of the room. And then someone at the front just went, “Thank you for joining the TarValon.Net toast.” And I'm like, “What?”

And then they did a couple of live raisings and then they started going around the room and everybody was just like this, you know, “Hi, I'm this person on the site.” And since I was in the back corner, I was like basically the last person to go with the way they were going left to right front to back.

So when they got to me, I was like, “I just kind of walked in,” and the entire room just kind of busted out in the laughter. And one guy put his hand on my shoulder, leaned forward and whispered into my ear, “You're stuck with us forever.”

And it's been about what, six years now?

'''00;06;26;02 - 00;06;39;18'''

'''Doll'''

Yup, stuck with us. So it was good talking to you guys. I think the rest of the season, we would be talking about the show and the books and anything Wheel of Time in general and I think it's going to be a blast.

'''00;06;39;22 - 00;06;40;26'''

'''Thad'''

It's going to be a good time.

'''00;06;41;03 - 00;06;54;01'''

'''Dianna'''

It'll be fun.

'''00;06;54;01 - 00;08;25;02'''

'''Doll'''

For those of you who are new or don't already know TarValon.Net is a website founded by fans of the Wheel of Time series in 2001 in order to not just pretend to be Aes Sedai, but actually be Aes Sedai.

We find ways to recognize our members for their service, either through time, to the site, the fandom, or through acts of service to the greater community as a whole.

We hold social events several times a year for our members around the world and participate in conventions like JordanCon, where you'll find a lot of our members are on staff.

We also have events online through our forums or our Discord.

We also give away a memorial scholarship in honor of Robert Jordan every year.

We also have our Servant of All program where we raise money for charity or we provide service to our communities, locally and around the world, and become true Aes Sedai.

Thank you for listening to Tar Valon Talks. If you have any suggestions for future topics, please email us at producer.tvt@gmail.com. We will launch our first episode in a couple of weeks where our hosts discuss the first season of Amazon's Wheel of Time.

2019-04-08T22:00:13Z

Thaddius al'Guy:

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Imran

2019-04-08T21:59:06Z

Thaddius al'Guy:

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#Redirect [[Aiel Clans and Septs#The Shaarad Aiel]]