TarValon Talks Episode 1: The Wheel of Time on Amazon
General
Hosts:
Release date:
- September 21st, 2022
Synopsis
In Episode 1, the hosts Doll, Dianna, and Thad discuss the first season of the Wheel of Time Television Series and some theories for season two.
Episode 1 Transcript
00;00;06;04 - 00;00;21;21
Doll
Welcome to TarValon Talks. My name is Doll and today I'll be joined by Thad and Dianna as we discuss the first season of Amazon's Wheel of Time. We will do our best to keep spoilers to a minimum. However, any spoilers will be noted in the show notes.
00;00;24;21 - 00;00;26;13
Doll
What do we think of the first season?
00;00;27;11 - 00;00;57;19
Thad
Upon the first watch, I think I was… things didn't happen that I was expecting to happen because a lot of stuff got very condensed, considering they had only a certain amount of episodes to work with. So, you know, little things get changed for adaptation. I'm totally fine by that. I was looking for specific scenes because, you know, I knew the path they were taking, so I enjoyed it. For it being, you know, an adaptation of a very, very long and complicated book series.
00;00;57;25 - 00;01;30;03
Dianna
Yeah, I really loved it. I look at it as another turning of the Wheel. I think there are certain parts of it that are stronger and certain parts of it that are not as strong. And especially the last episode which really suffered from COVID precautions, unfortunately. But overall, I absolutely loved it. Followed as much of the development of the show as I could as just a fan. And so I wasn't really shocked by anything that did or did not make it into the show.
00;01;31;08 - 00;02;11;19
Doll
Yeah, I made a point of not rereading the books right before, like it's been a few years now, so everything wasn't so fresh in my mind because I wanted to enjoy the show as something completely different. And I think it helped that it wasn't that fresh. But obviously there are things that stood out that were different. And, you know, I kind of liked it because it's nice not having all of the information ahead of times.
There's definitely changes that I'm not sure about yet. I kind of want to see where they're going, especially with aging the kids up. Like, I understand why they did it. You know, nobody wants to watch 16 year olds killing each other unless it's Hunger Games, I guess.
00;02;11;21 - 00;02;38;12
Thad
Well, I don't think that particularly bothered me. I think the biggest issues, I guess I could say, is the pacing was kind of like a yo-yo in some episodes. Toward there'd be, you know, great pacing along the episode and then it would stall. And then all of a sudden, you know, a ton of stuff happened in an even shorter amount of time, and you're just kind of like, “Wait a second, I need a moment to think about this,” to really process what happened.
00;02;39;01 - 00;02;50;07
Thad
Were there any episodes that kind of stood out from the first season for you? Compared to, you know, others that were just kind of bottom of the barrel because, you know, you have to have a favorite and you have to have a least favorite.
00;02;50;26 - 00;03;55;04
Dianna
Um, I find it very hard to pick one favorite. I have to pick two. I absolutely love episode six. Siuaraine Forever, one of the best pairings. And I genuinely did not think we were going to get that in the show. And when they had been hinting at it in episode, I think it was episode four, and they had like been kind of hinting at it and kind of hinting at it, I truly didn't believe it until they kissed in episode six, until I saw it with my own eyes, and then I started crying.
I myself am queer. And so to see two women who love each other in this thing that I love so much was just like over the moon.
I also love episode five. I know it's completely off book, but it does a lot of foreshadowing work, especially for the end of the season and also for stuff going forward that we won't get into because there are spoilers. So if you want to know what I'm talking about, read and find out.
00;03;55;04 - 00;04;27;03
Thad
You know what I enjoy about episode five, even though, as you said, it's off book, is that we get to explore the world a little bit more for things that we didn't get in the book, which, you know, take that as you might.
You know, people who prefer the books over the TV show may not really care or like anything about that. But I'm all game for new content for the world of the Wheel. We got to see, what, a little bit more into the Warders and how, you know, they act and stuff like that. So there's definitely a plus.
00;04;27;18 - 00;04;42;22
Dianna
I think it was a really beautiful way to show the relationship between an Aes Sedai and her Warders which is told a lot in the books through emotions and you can't really do that in the show. So. But what about you, Doll?
00;04;43;19 - 00;05;36;17
Doll
Yeah, I have a hard time picking a favorite too. I can find something I loved about just about every episode. So it is really hard to pick out just one.
Episode five was great, like the whole funeral scene and everything is really moving. And that was just interesting, especially to see Lan break down that way. Lan is so stoic, but he's got to be holding on to those emotions.
And, you know, he feels everything Moiraine feels and she's a passionate lady, you know, just to see him break down, even if it's a moment of absolute grief like that. And of course, them actually bringing that subcontext from the books out into the open with Siuan and Moiraine was just beautiful and I loved everything about it. And “Kneel”.. I was just like, “Yes,” it was just, it’s really beautiful to see that, like, be on TV with these characters.
00;05;37;00 - 00;05;47;25
Thad
I'll fully admit I totally forgot they were pillow friends when they were just novices or Accepted or whatever. So when that happened, I was just like, “Oh, that's right. That was a thing.”
00;05;48;07 - 00;05;55;12
Doll
I have to go back and reread New Spring. But yeah, and I also really love getting to see Loial.
00;05;55;15 - 00;06;01;20
Thad
Oh, absolutely. I also love that Loial was basically practical effects and no CG; really adds to it.
00;06;01;29 - 00;06;19;06
Doll
Most of the show is practical effects like there’s very little CG done, and most of it was to enhance what they did with the practicals, at least until episode eight and then… ooof, but unfortunately that was obviously because of COVID.
00;06;19;06 - 00;06;39;18
Thad
Yeah, that's why I'm hoping, you know, once season two starts, it'll be better than the end of season one because, you know, the way season one ended with the inclusion of showing the Seanchan coming, there's only one way to go and that's up.
00;06;39;22 - 00;06;53;16
Doll
Wow. I had forgotten about the Seanchan. How amazing was that scene at the very end with the boat coming in. The giant wave was a little ridiculous, but it was also like really cool. It was just like, “That poor little girl.”
00;06;53;16 - 00;06;56;10
Thad
They were setting the tone. They were setting the tone.
00;06;56;10 - 00;06;58;09
Doll
Yes, setting the tone.
00;06;58;23 - 00;07;35;17
Dianna
That poor girl, like where are her parents first of all. Yeah, that Seanchan scene is incredible and I agree, Thad, the only way to go is up. The Seanchan… I know a lot of my friends, who are not familiar with the Wheel of Time, when they watch the show, because I made all of them watch the show, were saying, “Oh, this is just Lord of the Rings 2.0. Oh, this is just Lord of the Rings.”
And honestly, the “Eye of the World” is very much “Lord of the Rings.” I can't fault them for that.
00;07;35;19 - 00;07;42;18
Thad
Books 1 through 3 is Lord of the Rings quest before it hits Shadow Rising. And that's where the story gets good.
00;07;42;18 - 00;07;55;21
Doll
Jordan was pretty open about that. The first three chapters of Eye of the World are basically just a retelling of Gandalf coming into the Shire and taking the hobbits. Except Gandalf was Moiraine and the Hobbits were Matt, Rand, Perrin, and Egwene.
00;07;56;08 - 00;08;13;05
Dianna
Except for the Seanchan. They felt like a departure from the Lord of the Rings. They feel like their own Wheel of Time entity. And I am very excited to have that big divergence be in season two.
00;08;13;24 - 00;08;31;22
Doll
I think it was not supposed to be a straight retelling of The Lord of the Rings. It was supposed to be like, “This is the fantasy that you're familiar with.” And then, twist! The women are in charge and you have this world that was broken and all these myths and legends from all over the world, not just Tolkien's England.
00;08;31;26 - 00;08;40;22
Thad
I mean, the amount of modern day references in the Wheel of Time should kind of send that home, which you probably won't pick up the first time you read it.
00;08;40;22 - 00;09;15;20
Doll
Even in the very first chapter, or one of the very first chapters, when Thom is telling his stories to the kids, he's talking about stuff that happened in our time because it was Glen the Eagle and his daughter Sally. That’s John Glenn and Sally Ride. And Mosque and Merc and they're playing with lightning in the sky. That's America and Moscow and their nuclear weapons.
I didn't pick that up until somebody pointed it out to me because it was just a throwaway line in the first chapter. Their legends are our world. Like that was when I went, “This series is more complicated than I ever thought.”
00;09;15;20 - 00;09;36;09
Thad
So for me, one of the first ones was at the first JordanCon when I think it was, it was either Alan or Maria was in one of the panels and they were just like, “Oh yeah, when Jordan was talking about this thing in Tanchico,” or was it Tanchico? So it was like, “Oh, it's the hood ornament of a Mercedes car.” And you're just like, “Oh, wow, I had no idea.”
00;09;36;20 - 00;10;09;08
Doll
So it was Tanchico, there's a museum. All of the stuff in that museum was stuff from our world, like that hood ornament and the giraffe skeleton. And even like the…I did not realize this, like when the kids see that ruined tower in the distance. I didn't realize they were antennas until somebody pointed it out to me. They were steel spires rising into the sky and they were, you know, like in ruins. They were radio antennas.
00;10;10;08 - 00;10;16;19
Thad
Huh. Well, I don't think I noticed that. I think I missed that. See, learning something new still 20 years later.
00;10;16;26 - 00;10;31;29
Doll
And they included them in the show, or like something similar. In the episode where they did the flashback to The Age of Legends and you see the buildings. And then later in that episode you see the buildings in ruins.
00;10;32;19 - 00;10;35;08
Thad
They showed in the opening shot of the first episode as well.
00;10;35;24 - 00;10;36;23
Doll
Oh yeah, they do.
00;10;37;22 - 00;11;19;27
Dianna
The end of the cold open in episode one and the end of the cold open in episode eight are the same scene. But in episode one, it's them ruined. And then in episode eight, it's them in all of their glory.
And I didn't realize that until I saw a gif set side by side, but all of my…again I, I apologize to be referencing my non-Wheel of Time friends a lot, but they are how I gauged the show; all of them picked up on that the first time we watched it. And I was like, “This show has done its job.” Fans who do not know what to expect are understanding it. This show has done this job.
00;11;20;13 - 00;11;52;24
Doll
I watched the episodes every week. I have a friend who I actually met through Tar Valon, but actually lives here in my hometown and we had a whole group of people that watch it. And most of us have read the books, but there's one or two people who haven’t. We were always watching them through key scenes to be like, “What are you going to pick up on?”
And then one of them was like, “I think Rand's the Dragon.” And I'm like, “Do you? Do you really? Hm, that's interesting.”
00;11;53;14 - 00;11;59;21
Thad
The only people I could get to watch it were my parents, and my mom was thinking it was going to be Mat the whole time. He's too shifty.
00;12;00;27 - 00;12;20;02
Dianna
I kept a running tally from all of my friends of who’s the Dragon in this episode; “Who do you think is the Dragon in this episode?” And for a long time they actually had the split soul theory. They thought all of the kids were the dragon, and I was like, “That's ridiculous.” And then when they referenced that in the show, I was like, “Okay.”
00;12;20;14 - 00;12;37;01
Doll
Yeah. I feel like that was their way of trying to extend the whole mystery of who the Dragon is. It’s more heavily hinted at what's going on with Rand very early on in the books. But the scene with Tam and the Trolloc on Winter’s Night, they sort of left that out until much later.
00;12;37;16 - 00;12;46;24
Thad
Yeah, that was one of those scenes that I was like, “They didn't show it. They didn't show it.” And then once they did the reveal, they showed it. And I was just like, “Okay, there we go. Now I feel better.”
00;12;47;15 - 00;13;13;21
Dianna
I am probably a rare Wheel of Time fan where I was very happy that they included a very short version of that scene. Because other than when I first read the books, every time I pick up the books again, if I am going to put down The Eye of the World, it is in that chapter. I think I have started The Eye of the World at least five times and dropped it in the chapter where Rand is trying to drag Tam to Emond’s Field.
00;13;13;21 - 00;13;17;13
Doll
The chapter really could have been five pages. It didn't have to be a whole chapter.
00;13;18;04 - 00;13;34;02
Dianna
Yeah, it's…it's tough. So when they revealed it at the end in episode, I believe that was episode seven, I was like, “This was a great way-” for me. For me personally. I definitely wanted it in the show, but I was like, “This was a great way as far as I'm concerned, to handle this.”
00;13;35;02 - 00;13;43;16
Thad
I agree. I agree wholeheartedly. It didn't need to be the 20 pages, that, you know, every chapter in the early books was.
00;13;43;16 - 00;13;49;24
Doll
No, it was definitely a good thing that they did not make that an entire episode.
00;13;49;24 - 00;13;58;02
Thad
So I know that people are probably going to, you know, ask the question, but how did you feel about the exclusion of Narg in terms of talking at least?
00;13;58;02 - 00;14;00;23
Doll
R.I.P. Narg
00;14;00;23 - 00;14;31;05
Dianna
R.I.P. Narg for sure. Um, I recently re-listened to the beginning of Eye of the World because I wanted to listen to the Rosamund Pike version, and I got it about as far as that chapter. And Narg is not the first Trolloc that comes through the door. There's like a whole other group. Um, and so when I re-listened to that and remembered that, I was a little bit more okay with it.
I certainly miss Narg and having at least a talking Trolloc because it is such a cool part of the Trolloc lore that there is at least one who can speak human speech. I'm hoping we get that next season or at some point.
00;14;47;16 - 00;15;14;24
Doll
As much as I miss the Narg jokes, I don't. He just makes no sense in the narrative. He's the only Trolloc we got to see that talked. We don't really get much back story in the books on the Trollocs and what they are or what their culture is. I mean, I know we learn it in some of the subsequent materials, like the Big White Book or the Companion, but it just doesn't make sense to have a talking Trolloc.
00;15;14;24 - 00;15;17;10
Thad
Definitely would have raised more questions than answer any.
00;15;17;21 - 00;15;26;14
Doll
Yeah. So R.I.P. Narg. But you're not that smart.
00;15;26;14 - 00;15;55;23
Dianna
And I could see us getting some if we are going to get more villain backstory. I could see us going into like a Trolloc town at some point or I could see the show kind of expanding on the villains that way. I'm not saying we will, obviously, but I could see it happening. And I do have a lot of faith in the showrunner, maybe more faith than some other people in the fandom do.
00;15;56;00 - 00;15;57;18
Thad
Well we won't talk about them.
00;15;59;19 - 00;16;03;20
Dianna
They have valid opinions. I don't want to discount them. I just saw a lot of, yeah.
00;16;03;29 - 00;16;05;17
Thad
Some of them are just downright mean.
00;16;06;01 - 00;16;16;13
Dianna
That's true. That's true. But I know that people have a lot of valid concerns for the show. But I'm just. I'm sorry, guys, but I'm not one of them.
00;16;16;24 - 00;16;17;06
Doll
Yeah.
00;16;17;20 - 00;16;48;19
Thad
For me, the most concern is how are they going to handle, you know, this situation? How is this going to come across? What are they going to do about this character since, you know, plotlines leading up to a thing they do happened in the first season but didn't happen the same way, so on and so forth. You know, for example, like with the whole thing of them not going to Caemlyn so we didn't get our introduction of Gawyn or-
00;16;50;20 - 00;16;51;02
Dianna
Galad
00;16;51;28 - 00;16;58;07
Thad
Morgase or. Yeah, Galad and Elayne and all that.
00;16;58;07 - 00;17;08;17
Doll
Yeah. I have a feeling that they just put them out of order and we went straight to Fal Dara instead of going through Caemlyn, and I think they'll probably come back through it in season two.
00;17;09;02 - 00;17;23;05
Thad
Yeah. And that's, I'm totally fine with that. There's a, I think it's been quoted that there's over 200 individual point of views throughout all 15 books. So they're not going to all make the cut.
00;17;23;16 - 00;17;29;06
Doll
No, but they can't cut Galad out entirely, I don't think.
00;17;29;12 - 00;17;30;04
Thad
Definitely not.
00;17;30;21 - 00;18;00;17
Dianna
I have a controversial fan theory that Morgase is not going to be in the show. That if they were going to cut one character from Caemlyn, it's going to be Morgase. And we're just, which would be fine because some of her plotlines in the book, I think, are not super essential. Also there's some of the plot lines I actually don't want the show to go into.
And I think there are ways that you can handle what happens with her in a way where she is discussed but never brought on screen. But I do, I'm quite confident we're going to see Galad and Gawyn next season.
00;18;20;00 - 00;18;23;04
Thad
I just want to see Mat beat the snot out of them
00;18;24;07 - 00;18;24;29
Dianna
I think we-
00;18;25;11 - 00;18;26;19
Thad
That's, that's what I want to see.
00;18;26;20 - 00;18;31;01
Dianna
Did we see the staff scene in the, like, behind the scenes footage?
00;18;32;07 - 00;18;51;19
Doll
There was something similar, but it was not Mat. There was a, it was the Origins and it was about the Warders training. And there was one that they showed a staff, like one of the best warders getting beat by staff. I don't think it was specifically Mat.
00;18;51;19 - 00;19;07;26
Thad
Yeah, because that was the story that, what was his name, Hamman I believe, the one that teaches the warders. He was the one that told that story after Mat beat Galad and Gawyn..
00;19;07;26 - 00;19;08;10
Doll
Right.
00;19;08;18 - 00;19;20;29
Thad
Because, you know, because they underestimated him and they said the greatest swordsman ever could beat 100 men, 100 armed men. But he was taken down by one farmer with a staff because they underestimate him.
00;19;20;29 - 00;19;24;21
Doll
That's correct. I'd forgotten about that. So that's what that scene was.
00;19;26;13 - 00;19;56;10
Dianna
There's something in the behind the scenes footage of season two that we saw. That is a couple of characters training with a staff. And one of those characters is my first personal theory for who they have cast as Gawyn. I have seen other people thinking that they've cast him as Galad. But that is Jay Duffy and he is definitely in that scene training with a staff.
So I'm wondering if that is because he and Gawyn get this snot beaten out of them by Mat and so he's like, “okay let me train with a staff” in a rare moment of Galad or Gawyn humility.
00;20;10;27 - 00;20;17;23
Thad
So the question is, does he have a lot of starry eyed women in the backdrop of the picture looking at him? Then we would know that it’s Galad.
00;20;19;07 - 00;20;35;28
Doll
Yeah, I don't know. That's an interesting question. Especially since Mat is now going back to Tar Valon, like he's not going back to the Tower. There's no way he's going back to the Tower unless he's going back to retrieve the knife.
00;20;36;25 - 00;21;01;01
Thad
Well, remember it, at the end of the first season, they kind of showed him, I assume that was back in Tar Valon because I think they used the set for Tar Valon was also for Aridhol. Actually what's, Shadar Logoth. That's its name now. Because they use the same set for both of those locations and they showed him in that location.
So I'm not sure if he went to Shadar Logoth or if he's come back to the Tower to retrieve the knife because that's where it's at. Or that's where he thinks it's at. Because as we know, at the end of the season, Fain has it.
00;21;14;23 - 00;21;31;17
Doll
It was really awkwardly done. And I understand why they had to do it without having Barney to film the final scene. They just made do with shots they already had. But I have to assume it's Tar Valon. I don't see how he would have made it all the way back to Shadar Logoth.
00;21;32;15 - 00;21;34;13
Thad
Yeah, that's a fair shake on it.
00;21;35;02 - 00;21;50;18
Dianna
I agree that it's Tar Valon. And also don't forget that Moiraine asked somebody to contact the Red Sisters about Mat. So it's possible that if he's in the city they picked him up and brought him to the Tower against his will.
00;21;51;02 - 00;22;01;07
Doll
It'd be interesting to see what they do with that since it had to deviate so far from the events in the book. Between that and the COVID restrictions, the episode just became a complete mess.
00;22;01;21 - 00;22;10;25
Thad
Yeah, that's why. That's why I don't hold too much distaste for episode eight just because they did the best with what they had with, you know, a global pandemic going on, so.
00;22;11;11 - 00;22;35;26
Dianna
There, there are a couple of non-covid choices that are made in eight that I find strange. Like they have this armor that is impenetrable and it has been worn in many battles. And for some reason the guy is like, “I'm going to go fight Trollocs. I'm not wearing that armor.” And I was like, “Why was that your choice?”
Like, sorry, I guess you're doomed, but okay. That choice in particular I always find incredibly strange when I watch the episode. That's probably my biggest nitpick with the script that's not COVID related.
00;22;51;03 - 00;22;51;26
Thad
What was his name?
00;22;52;02 - 00;22;58;04
Dianna
It's Agelmar, and I can never remember his sister's name. It's Amalisia? Amalisa
00;22;58;21 - 00;23;03;21
Doll
Yes, Amalisa and her strange circle that could…
00;23;04;07 - 00;23;07;23
Thad
Oh, yeah, that was a very interesting choice on how to do all that.
00;23;07;27 - 00;23;22;14
Doll
Yeah. I don't know how I feel about that. Like, I get that they wanted to have some kind of visual representation, but they made it look like Nyneave died and then Egwene brought her back. I don't think that was their intention, but they certainly looked that way.
00;23;22;14 - 00;23;28;06
Thad
I think it was supposed to be, she was like on the brink of death, but she was healed back in time.
00;23;28;11 - 00;23;54;03
Dianna
I wish they had switched that. I wish they had switched that to Egwene dying given - or almost dying - given what happens with Nyneave later, it would make thematically so much more sense. And there's also another moment in that episode where Nyneave is talking about how she can't hear the wind anymore, but Egwene still can. And I wish that they had reversed that dialog as well.
There were a lot of dialog and choices made with Nyneave and Egwene in particular where I'm like, this scene is not changed, but thematically things are so much more true to characters if you just reverse this dialog.
00;24;06;09 - 00;24;23;11
Doll
Is this how they're going to explain her block and that's why she can't hear the wind? Because that's what my thought was. First, I thought she had burned herself out. But I really do think that maybe she's developed her block now and she'll be too scared to channel again until she lets go of it.
00;24;23;20 - 00;24;24;13
Dianna
That could be.
00;24;25;12 - 00;24;39;17
Doll
I think they made it too easy for her to channel in some of those scenes, but she did do it with that big emotion and I think maybe she's completely blocked herself now. That way they can explain it better while still being able to let her do some more extraordinary things earlier in the series.
00;24;39;20 - 00;24;40;29
Thad
That would make sense, I think.
00;24;40;29 - 00;24;43;07
Dianna
That could be. I like that explanation.
00;24;43;23 - 00;25;01;27
Doll
Otherwise, why can't she hear the wind? The hearing the wind is the metaphor that the wisdoms have always used in the Two Rivers for being able to channel without admitting that that's what they were doing. So if she can no longer hear the wind, does that mean she's no longer able to access the One Power?
00;25;02;10 - 00;25;04;02
Dianna
It'll be interesting to see how they handle that.
00;25;04;24 - 00;25;10;16
Doll
Yeah. So where do you guys think we're going with season two other than the Seanchan?
00;25;10;16 - 00;26;57;14
Thad
I have a big theory on what they could potentially do. As we saw at the end of the first season, Moiraine gets, I think a lot of people think she stilled because she can't feel it anymore. And I'm like, no, it's a, it's a shield. She was shielded, but since she was shielded by the male half, she can't feel it, can't do anything about it.
In the second book, you know, Moiraine and Lan have one chapter in the entire book, and that's all we get of them. So, you know, you got to have Rosamund Pike and Daniel Henney all season long and instead of, you know, at two ancient brown sisters’ trying to find information on the prophecies. So now that we've got this situation of, uh oh, I can't access the Power anymore, what are we going to do about it?
I think this is where a good point for Verin to come in is because she's, you know, she's the most prominent Brown in the series. She's going to go, er Moiraine is going to go to Verin. They're going to try to figure this out, you know, by looking, you know, basically doing a scavenger hunt of old records, maybe to find a way to potentially free themselves, free herself from from being shielded.
Because, you know, as we see in later books, if you know where a weave is, even if you can't see it and you know what it is, you can undo it because Lanfear does that to Rand. She's just like, you know, she gets held up by air and she just picks it apart, not even seeing it. She's like, “Yep, this is possible.”
So I think we're going to get Verin in season two here, and that's going to be her little journey of figuring out how to undo what was done to her at the end of season one. And for the rest of the kids, I haven’t thought that far ahead yet.
00;26;58;12 - 00;27;17;29
Doll
I like that. I really do. Not because Verin’s my favorite or anything. But (laughter) So instead of bringing in two characters we never see again, we bring in Verin because Verin is very important and not just because she's my favorite person and she's a Brown.
00;27;18;06 - 00;27;18;17
Thad
But for other..
00;27;18;17 - 00;27;21;25
Doll
But because her story. (laughter) Her story is very Important.
00;27;21;25 - 00;27;22;15
Thad
Very important reasons.
00;27;22;15 - 00;27;29;27
Doll
Very very important reasons (laugh) that I won't get into because they're spoilery, or at least not at this point in time.
00;27;30;18 - 00;27;32;18
Thad
So, read and find out.
00;27;33;19 - 00;27;41;05
Doll
I think. I think Rand's headed at the Waste. I think we're going to meet more Aiel. I think he's looking for some answers.
00;27;41;13 - 00;27;48;29
Thad
Because we already know we're getting Aviendha this season because they announced her actress at JordanCon.
00;27;50;12 - 00;28;08;05
Dianna
I…So I think for Perrin in particular, they've announced that they're going to cast Elyas. And I can't remember if we know who was cast as Elyas, but we know he's going to be in season two and I think that they are going to replace the sniffer from Fal Dara whose name is escaping me.
00;28;08;16 - 00;28;11;28
Thad
Hurin, I love Hurin. He's the best. I love him.
00;28;12;18 - 00;28;17;07
Dianna
He is a delight. I unfortunately don't think he's going to be in season two. I think they're going to replace.
00;28;17;15 - 00;28;18;17
Thad
Probably not.
00;28;19;08 - 00;28;22;24
Dianna
Yeah, I think they're going to replace him with Elyas.
00;28;23;06 - 00;28;39;04
Thad
Yeah. Because you've got, you know, a wolf brother who can already do what Hurin can. And, you know, there was that whole back and forth and, you know, book two with Oh, is Perrin going to be a sniffer too, since he can, you know, suss out whatever Hurin was Smelling?
00;28;39;09 - 00;28;43;19
Dianna
Yeah, exactly. So I think that that's going to be what they… how they handle Perrin.
00;28;43;19 - 00;28;45;13
Thad
I agree. I agree with you totally.
00;28;45;28 - 00;28;58;20
Dianna
Yeah. They're going to chase the dagger and Padan Fain, which makes sense since they had a lot of Padan Fain and Perrin stuff at the end of episode eight.
00;28;58;21 - 00;29;15;13
Doll
Yeah, I feel like that should have been Mat’s scene. Like most of that stuff happened with Mat in the book, but putting Perrin in the place would make sense if they bring in Elyas as the sniffer, and that would make a more smoother transition for that particular story.
00;29;16;06 - 00;29;24;11
Dianna
Yeah. What do you guys think about the theory? Not my theory, but I like it. The theory that we are skipping Tear this season and going straight to the Waste.
00;29;24;24 - 00;29;31;11
Doll
I think that's a very good possibility considering that, what we've seen from the behind the scenes so far.
00;29;31;26 - 00;29;55;27
Thad
I yeah, I could I could definitely see that happening, especially if Rand is already heading towards the Waste, you know, if that hasn't been confirmed because, you know, we just know that he's off on his own now. And I think in the few shots that I've seen, at least they don't show him in any kind of desert. He just has a shaved head now.
And he's by himself.
00;29;56;18 - 00;30;11;20
Doll
Yeah, He has a shaved head. But we also see Aiel, and it makes me think that he's made it to the Waste. We might still end up at Tear, because Rafe did say that they were going to Falme. He said “Falm”, but I thought it was “Fal may”. I could be wrong.
00;30;11;20 - 00;30;19;27
Thad
I've heard both in the official audio description because like Michael Cramer will say “fal may” and then Kate Reading will say “Falm” or something.
00;30;20;00 - 00;30;20;11
Doll
Yeah.
00;30;20;20 - 00;30;36;04
Thad
And it's like, all right, okay, which one is it? I mean, if they're going to leave the Waste, unless they use a portal stone and I mean, you know, spoilers, they, they do do that to get to Falme in the first place, but then they also do that to get into the Waste. So.
00;30;36;09 - 00;30;40;09
Dianna
Yeah, and the portal stones are in the show, which I was shocked by.
00;30;40;10 - 00;30;44;26
Thad
Did they show them off in season one or were they in like, behind the scenes photographs.
00;30;45;09 - 00;30;54;20
Dianna
They’re in season one, If you look for them, especially in the episode where they're all going to Tar Valon. Every single person passes a portal stone at one point going into Tar Valon.
00;30;56;04 - 00;30;58;18
Thad
Okay. And so there's the nice set up.
00;30;59;01 - 00;31;05;25
Dianna
Yeah, I thought the portal stones were going to be cut completely because they become basically irrelevant at a certain point in the series.
00;31;06;04 - 00;31;08;14
Thad
They have the potential to be so overpowered.
00;31;09;02 - 00;31;10;27
Dianna
Truly.
00;31;10;27 - 00;31;23;25
Doll
If they do away with the portal stones and they might be doing away with other plotlines I think would be interesting to see but might be a little superfluous. With the Aelfinn an Eelfinn.
00;31;24;05 - 00;31;34;00
Dianna
I don't think they will do away with them. They are so essential to Mat's plotline in particular, I don't think they’ll do away with them.
00;31;34;01 - 00;31;40;21
Doll
Yeah, that's true. It depends on how they handle Mat exactly.
00;31;40;21 - 00;31;42;01
Dianna
Yeah.
00;31;42;07 - 00;31;56;22
Doll
Like, I could see them coming up with another way to explain without having to go through all of that with the Tower of Ghenjei, and I'd love to see that, but I don't… I don't know how they're going to do it. And fit it all in.
00;31;56;22 - 00;32;07;17
Thad
Yeah, I wish they, I, I seriously hope we get to see inside the Eelfinn or Aelfinn dimension at least once it has such iconic scenery that no matter how many times I read it, that's the one thing I always remember.
00;32;07;24 - 00;32;08;22
Doll
That would be really cool.
00;32;09;10 - 00;32;09;19
Dianna
Yeah.
00;32;09;26 - 00;32;13;06
Thad
So do we have anything else we're looking forward to in season two?
00;32;13;16 - 00;32;16;09
Dianna
I am excited to see Elaida. I hate Elaida.
00;32;16;28 - 00;32;18;10
Thad
You love to hate Elaida.
00;32;18;25 - 00;32;25;21
Dianna
I truly do. She is my number one least favorite character in the series, which I don't think is a hot take. And I am thrilled to see her.
00;32;26;07 - 00;32;31;19
Doll
Do we think that we will or are they going to roll her in with Liandrin?
00;32;31;25 - 00;32;35;14
Dianna
I don't think they're going to. I think we're going to see Elaida.
00;32;36;03 - 00;32;43;25
Doll
It just felt like they were setting her up to take on Suian. I would hate to see that because I feel like they've served two different purposes.
00;32;43;25 - 00;33;03;01
Thad
I feel like her storyline specifically or I guess it could be done by a different character, but her storyline specifically with another character who I will not name, you should read the books, is very important in the later books for the development of said character. If you know who I'm talking about.
00;33;03;08 - 00;33;03;18
Doll
Yeah.
00;33;04;11 - 00;33;19;18
Dianna
I think because Liandrin is Black Ajah, and Elaida is not, that is why I really don't want them to combine those characters. I just... I think it's so crucial to Elaida's plotline that she is not Black Ajah.
00;33;19;29 - 00;33;30;10
Doll
They were coming at it with the same outcomes but very different points of view. You have somebody who truly thinks they're doing the right thing but ends up doing something really evil.
00;33;30;14 - 00;33;30;24
Dianna
Yeah.
00;33;31;07 - 00;33;37;19
Doll
Whereas you have another person who's just evil and I'm just afraid that they're going to roll those characters into one person.
00;33;38;07 - 00;34;02;23
Dianna
I have faith that they won't. I agree with you that they were definitely setting up Liandrin to be a rival to both Moiraine and Siuan and but my hope is that she will be like a small bad, like a small bad for episode, or for seasons one and two or maybe even seasons one, two, and three.
00;34;03;21 - 00;34;08;01
Doll
Oh. And then we introduced Elaida as a big bad after everything goes down.
00;34;08;09 - 00;34;28;24
Dianna
Yeah, because I don't think we're going to get the big Elaida plot point. The first big Elaida plot point until season three. So I could see them setting her up as this like neutral high end… actually, you know what? I just had a thought that they're definitely not cutting Elaida because Moiraine talks about her in episode eight.
00;34;29;15 - 00;34;34;27
Doll
She did?
Dianna
Elaida is the one who beats Moiraine in A New Spring.
00;34;35;16 - 00;34;38;00
Doll
But did she name her?
00;34;38;00 - 00;34;53;13
Dianna
She doesn't name her, but I don't think that they would have alluded to that character in that way if they weren't going to introduce her. If they did allude to her and never introduced her to that line would make no sense to me, and it would just be just yet another quibble that I with Episode 8 (laughter)
00;34;57;18 - 00;35;05;19
Dianna
But because of that line, I think I grabbed my best friend's arm and I was like, “she's coming. I'm so excited.”
00;35;06;25 - 00;35;08;04
Thad
You can't wait to hate.
00;35;08;20 - 00;35;12;02
Dianna
I can't. That’s why I'm excited for the Seanchan. And I hate them, too. So thrilled to see them in the show.
00;35;13;23 - 00;35;28;14
Thad
You know, I am I am wondering how they are going to handle the accent that the Seanchan have, because it is so very well versed in the books that it's a slurry Texan accent.
00;35;28;14 - 00;35;38;11
Dianna
I don't know if this is at all indicative of what they're going to do in the show, but in the Rosamund Pike version of Book Two, she gives them a Texas accent.
00;35;38;11 - 00;35;38;29
Doll
That's good.
00;35;39;05 - 00;35;39;29
Thad
That's a good sign.
00;35;40;03 - 00;35;53;15
Doll
Mostly because I want to hear more Southern accents on TV, but I also want them to be done well. Like I don't want to hear somebody doing a fake Texas drawl. I want somebody with a real Southern accent.
00;35;53;15 - 00;36;06;18
Dianna
I think that at least one of the actresses who's been cast for a Seanchan role is Texan or at least Southern. From what I remember, I would need to double check myself, but.
00;36;07;02 - 00;36;10;28
Thad
That's all the verification we need. Don't check your sources. It's confirmed. (laughter)
00;36;12;12 - 00;36;19;22
Doll
I believe you. And I'm going to look forward to some authentic Southern accents that aren't done by Hollywood actors.
00;36;20;24 - 00;36;40;29
Dianna
It will also be such a nice way to yet again set the show apart from other shows that are coming out like Rings of Power, like House of the Dragon, where everyone is in some way vaguely British or European, to just have this other culture come in and it's like, “Hi, we're American” and it will feel so strange.
00;36;41;08 - 00;36;43;06
Thad
“How you doin’ y'all.”
00;36;44;09 - 00;37;05;23
Doll
I really hope so, because Andor I guess is like English enough that I'm okay with everybody kind of having a vaguely British accent right now, but it would be really nice if we didn't go there because it's not set in England. These people aren't from England, their cultures are from around the world. They should have varied accents.
00;37;05;24 - 00;37;06;07
Thad
I agree.
00;37;06;15 - 00;37;10;29
Doll
They shouldn't all sound like royalty, you know, with a posh British accent.
00;37;11;00 - 00;37;12;20
Thad
Oh, we'll definitely get that from Elayne.
00;37;12;25 - 00;37;13;07
Doll
Yeah.
00;37;13;22 - 00;37;15;08
Dianna
Oh, for sure. Cannot wait.
00;37;16;03 - 00;37;20;00
Doll
Oh, you got Moiraine with hers. Which makes sense.
00;37;20;14 - 00;37;32;17
Dianna
There's, there's Maighan with her Scottish? Irish? accent which I really liked and I do think that Agelmar and Analisa? We just looked up her name and I’ve forgotten it again.
00;37;32;22 - 00;37;33;25
Doll
Yeah it was Amalisa.
00;37;33;25 - 00;37;40;29
Dianna
Amalisa, and they had more of the Eastern dialect like Eastern, which I liked.
00;37;41;13 - 00;37;51;04
Thad
Yeah, Fal Dara was definitely kind of a more traditional Eastern kind of setting, not quite like Saldaea, but it had more of an Asian inspiration.
00;37;51;04 - 00;37;55;25
Doll
Yeah, like all the borderlands were very Eastern Asian in their cultures.
00;37;56;02 - 00;38;12;12
Dianna
I think Daniel Henney was talking about at one point that the costume director asked him, you know, what would you like to see for the culture or for the costuming, for…um, why am I forgetting what country he is from?
00;38;12;12 - 00;38;13;01
Doll
Malkier.
00;38;13;11 - 00;38;35;11
Dianna
Thank you, for Malkier. Yeah. And he was like, I would love to see it be traditionally Korean because Daniel Henney is Korean American. And so they used a lot of like hanbok and like Korean clothing inspired looks for Malkier, which I thought was a beautiful touch.
We should talk release date.
00;38;35;29 - 00;38;37;02
Doll
Do we have a release date?
00;38;37;14 - 00;38;38;16
Dianna
We do not.
00;38;38;28 - 00;38;41;17
Doll
I guess I was just assuming it would be October again.
00;38;41;25 - 00;38;58;12
Dianna There has been several sources quoted that it won't be until 2023 and I am fine with that because I want them to take as long as they possibly need for post-production. They wrapped filming in May. If we give them eight months, that would be March, April.
00;38;59;04 - 00;39;02;02
Thad
Yeah, April would be a great time to release something like that.
00;39;02;21 - 00;39;12;01
Doll Yes, April would be a great time for that. They could do it, you know, a big premiere at some sort of event where a lot of Wheel of Time fans might be. (clears throat)
00;39;13;07 - 00;39;14;18
Thad
I see you picked up on my hint.
00;39;14;23 - 00;39;38;11
Dianna
I'm laughing because I completely agree with you guys. It would be perfect to drop it right around that time, right? Yeah. I don't think that they will do it this year because they're not going to want to take…um they're not going to want to pull focus from Rings of Power. They've invested so much in that show that they're not going to want to cannibalize their audience at all.
00;39;38;22 - 00;39;39;21
Doll
That is very true.
00;39;39;21 - 00;39;48;11
Thad
Yeah, that's a very good point.
00;39;48;11 - 00;39;50;06
Doll
Our next segment is “Ask TarValon Talks”. If you’d like to ask us a question please reach out to us on the forums or you can email us at producer.tvt@gmail.com.
Our first question is how was Callandor made and why is it called a “sword that is not a sword”?
00;40;06;12 - 00;40;34;13
Thad
Why is Callandor the sword that is not a sword? Well, I guess the easiest question of that is, I mean, we know what it is. I mean Moiraine explains to Rand in the party, you know, once they find out about the sword in the heart of Tear, that, you know, it is a very powerful Sa’angreal, I think it was.
00;40;35;10 - 00;40;36;14
Doll
Yeah, Sa’angreal.
00;40;36;25 - 00;40;59;08
Thad
Yeah. That was left over from, you know, the previous era. And I think that kind of explains it enough right there that it's completely made of, you know, crystal glass, whatever material they said, and it's shaped like a sword. So it is a sword, but it is also not a sword.
00;40;59;17 - 00;41;37;26
Doll
And for how they are made, that knowledge is lost to the Breaking. As far as we know, no one in the third age knows how to make Sa’angreal anymore.
Our next question is “What were the inspirations for the cultures of Randland and do they have real world equivalents?”
I'm going to put a pin in that question because in our next episode we will be interviewing Michael Livingston and he is releasing a book called Origins of the Wheel of Time that talks about just this topic. So we're going to answer that question in the next episode.
00;41;38;06 - 00;42;10;08
Doll
At this point in the episode, we're going to go no holds barred on all things spoilers. Each week one of our hosts will pick something from the books to talk about. And if you have not finished reading the books and don't wish to be spoiled, please stop listening now.
So I was thinking for the first couple of episodes we can pick our favorite scene from any book in, anywhere in the series.
00;42;10;24 - 00;43;04;28
Doll
I would like to go first. I have sort of alluded to this earlier and my favorite character of all time is Verin. People underestimate her because she seems absent minded. But if you pay more attention to what she's saying, you see there's a lot more going on than you think. And the scene where she reveals her plan was my favorite scene of all times. I think any book ever.
I thought she had gotten caught up as a, as a dark friend and was trying to get out or something like that. But it never occurred to me that she accidentally swore the oaths to the Dark One, and turned, like, counter spy. And the way she did it was just so freaking epic and took down every single Black Ajah member. Like in one fell swoop. It's just so epically Brown and epically beautiful. And I. Okay, I could gush about Verin forever.
00;43;04;28 - 00;43;22;11
Thad
I loved how it went down when she goes in and she's, you know, she sits down and she drinks her tea and then she goes like, “that dress is blue,” and you just and you're just like, “Oh, oh, my. Oh, man, something's about to go down.”
00;43;22;18 - 00;43;38;12
Dianna
That scene is so epic. I, I agree with everything you said, Doll. That scene is so epic. Like Verin was... She was never, like, my favorite character, but she was definitely like my top ten. And that scene solidified her there forever.
00;43;39;09 - 00;43;40;20
Thad
Legendary status.
00;43;41;01 - 00;43;54;21
Dianna
Truly, like, which is what, just such an incredible move. Like, just every, all of the other dark friends are playing checkers and variant is over here playing 3D chess.
00;43;54;21 - 00;44;05;16
Thad
Yeah it's that that is definitely a scene that is very hard to top in the entirety of the series, like, just the impact that it has on the entire story.
00;44;05;23 - 00;44;12;28
Doll
And it's just two people sitting down having tea. Well one of them was having tea the other one was having poison.
00;44;12;28 - 00;44;16;17
Thad
And this is why I think they're going to introduce Verin sooner than later.
00;44;16;27 - 00;44;23;15
Dianna
It's one of those epic scene scenes where it's like, you don't necessarily need to do this verbatim, but you've got to do this.
00;44;24;07 - 00;44;57;27
Doll
Even if it's just her purposely killing herself with a slow acting poison, it gives her just enough time to lay out everything she needs to sit down and basically rat out every Black Ajah so that she's betraying them in the hour of her death and then lay down and die. If I ever become an evil overlord and I swear my minions to an oath, I will not use such flowery language. Just be simple with it. You will not betray me, no hour of your death, because you can do a lot of damage in an hour.
00;44;57;27 - 00;44;58;20
Thad
If you’re Verin you sure can.
00;44;59;12 - 00;45;02;02
Doll
If you’re Verin and you've been working on this for 30 years.
00;45;02;09 - 00;45;07;11
Dianna
The Dark One is definitely undone by his own dramatic streak of more than one occasion.
00;45;07;18 - 00;45;30;13
Doll
Is like the villain who takes too long to explain his dastardly plan, allowing the good guy to get away because he had to explain it because, see how clever I am?
All right. Well, that's my favorite scene. I think in future episodes, we'll pick another spoilery scene and one of you guys can talk about it.
00;45;30;13 - 00;45;32;00
Thad
I'm sure I can come up with something.
00;45;32;00 - 00;45;33;20
Dianna
Yeah, I already have five.
00;45;34;24 - 00;46;56;00
Doll
Okay, excellent.
Thank you for listening to TarValon Talks. Join us next time when we talk to Michael Livingston about his book, The Origins of the Wheel of Time. Don't forget to like this episode and follow us on whatever platform you listen to your podcast on. If you have any suggestions on the topics you like to hear from us, feel free to send us an email at producer.tvt@gmail.com.
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