TarValon Talks Episode 2: Origins of the Wheel of Time with Michael Livingston
General
Hosts:
Guest:
Release date:
- October 5th, 2022
Synopsis:
In Episode 2, the hosts Doll, Dianna, and Thad welcome author Michael Livingston to the podcast to talk about the Wheel of Time and his new book 'Origins of the Wheel of Time'.
Episode 2 Transcript
00;00;10;29 - 00;00;54;00
Thad
Welcome to this edition of TarValon Talks. I'm one of your hosts, Thad, and here with me today are Doll and Dianna. In this episode, we have a very special guest for everyone today. He's a man of many things, a professor at the Citadel, a lover of A Knight's Tale, many scholarly articles under his belt, several Middle Eastern or Middle East translations, lots of academia and written fiction.
You may have also seen him on a TV show called Contact, which is all good, great and grand. But did you know he has Robert Jordan's desk? He's graciously putting together a book that explores the inspirations for many of the people and places in the Wheel of Time. The origins, you might say. We would like to welcome Michael Livingston to the podcast.
Michael, thank you for joining us today.
00;00;54;11 - 00;01;01;08
Michael Livingston
It's my pleasure. I'm very excited. I'm very excited. It's probably middle English translation stuff as opposed to the Middle East.
00;01;01;09 - 00;01;03;23
Thad
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I caught myself in the middle of saying it.
00;01;04;04 - 00;01;08;22
Michael Livingston
Yeah, my Arabic isn't so hot, but you asked me to talk 500 years ago, and I'm good to go.
00;01;09;03 - 00;01;17;03
Thad
Hey, you know, I've actually read a couple of your old, older academia articles. I really liked the one about the medieval maps that you did.
00;01;18;06 - 00;01;19;21
Michael Livingston
Oh, man. Yeah, yeah.
00;01;19;21 - 00;01;35;10
Thad
Yeah, yeah. I read that one like, a while ago, too. So I think one of the favorite things for me from that article specifically was your T.O. map section because I read the whole thing that you had talked about with the two sphere theory and I was like, “That's really interesting. I've never heard that before.”
00;01;35;21 - 00;02;37;16
Michael Livingston
Yeah. Yeah. No, that's like, that was graduate school for me. Yeah, a long time ago. I was a younger man back then. I might have even had hair. I'm not sure.
So TarValon.Net, like, has a special place in my heart because I came to the attention of the estate. I'd actually. I'd met. I'd met Jim and there's all kinds of stuff back there, but I really kind of came to the attention because when I gave the speech inducting Jordan into the South Carolina Academy of Authors, which was held here at the Citadel, and that was like the hardest speech I had ever given in my life. It was really rough.
And from that, I ended up giving a talk at Charleston Library Society about the impact, literary impact of Jordan and how it came to that. But who also came to that was a member of TarValon.Net who said, “Oh, this was incredible. Will you come talk at our..” I think it was the 10th anniversary celebration.
00;02;37;16 - 00;02;40;06
Doll
It was. Yeah, our 10th anniversary.
00;02;40;18 - 00;02;40;28
Michael Livingston
There you go.
00;02;40;28 - 00;02;59;05
Doll
It was in Charleston and we got to see, Harriet invited us to the house, and so we got to take a tour of the house. And yeah, you came and talked that night and it was, it was actually really great. I really enjoyed it. And I think I've been a fan ever since.
00;02;59;10 - 00;03;56;21
Michael Livingston
Thank you! But yeah, that, that really like, that really kind of like set in motion somehow this, like this is this is, this is the guy who does the thing or whatever and, and, and that and that. This is the guy who does the thing is part of how like this book is happening. So, and, and honestly, you know, it's ah, probably the reason the desk is here, right? You know, that they were like, where is the desk going to go? Well, the guy who does the thing and so, you know, okay, well, I'm the guy who does the thing. So here it is.
And yeah, that, you know, being invited to give that talk, you know, and the kindness with which I was welcomed, you know, everybody's so, so warm and, you know, like, who the hell is this guy? It was just like, this is a guy, like, let’s listen to him or whatever. And it was, so I have this, I have this place in my heart for TarValon.Net, like, y’all are cool.
00;03;57;00 - 00;03;57;24
Dianna
Good to have you here.
00;03;58;06 - 00;03;59;09
Michael Livingston
It's good to be here. Thank you.
00;04;00;12 - 00;04;12;24
Thad
If we want to get right into the questions, we can just go ahead and do that. Although I'll let everybody know ahead of time. There's no Nakomi questions. So if you're listening to the podcast for that, there's none of that here.
00;04;13;06 - 00;04;22;29
Michael Livingston
Yeah, I'm not allowed to talk Nakomi until the book’s out. But yes, I'll, all will be revealed at least insofar as I can reveal things.
00;04;23;09 - 00;04;26;16
Dianna
Well, don't worry. We won't we won't get into too many specifics.
00;04;27;11 - 00;04;28;13
Michael Livingston
Okay, cool, cool, cool.
00;04;28;23 - 00;04;36;18
Dianna
In fact, let's start as general as possible. Tell us about your history with the Wheel of Time. How did you start reading the series?
00;04;36;18 - 00;05;55;20
Michael Livingston
Uhh, yeah. So I started, I think, I keep saying it was when I was 15. I think that's right, because I know I couldn't drive yet. I was living in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and I uh, I liked fantasy books and I had some, some, some allowance money, rode my dirt bike across the prairie to the bookstore and there was this new release, The Eye of the World. And I thought, well, all right, you know, it's… looks interesting from the cover, I guess, or whatever, and sat down and started reading it and spent all my money because, ‘cause I you know, it was like a new release. Right? So it was crazy expensive, and… and yeah, I took it home and kind of fell in love with it right away.
And from then on, was just, every time a new book came out, I bought it, you know, even all the way through graduate school. And, and, yeah, it's kind of been a part of my life, you know, ever, ever since. Obviously, my relationship to it has changed a lot, you know, from being kind of like a fan to being, you know, whatever I am now not quite sure what that is, but I mean, I'm still a fan. But like, yeah, it's, it's been very, very strange, this experience, right?
00;05;56;19 - 00;05;58;23
Thad
But to put you on the other side of the veil, so to speak.
00;05;59;25 - 00;06;30;13
Michael Livingston
Yeah. I mean, I'm actually I'm literally recording this at his desk, right? So like, I'm sitting my, my hands are on his desk right now. I'm sitting in his chair. This is actually his office. This is his chair. Um, yeah, it's. It's been very... It's been wonderful. It's absolutely been wonderful. But it is definitely one of those kind of bewildering, like, “Is this real?” kind of things.
00;06;30;28 - 00;06;49;21
Thad
You know, it's funny that you mention that thing about the cover of The Eye of the World, like catching you, because most people I know that have started reading those books, that's that's generally what they say got them is “I saw the cover when I was at the bookstore and that's what reeled me in” and it’s been a bumpier, um it's been a fun ride ever since.
00;06;49;21 - 00;07;20;06
Michael Livingston
Yeah, you know, it was a terrific cover. I mean, it really was. The cover is really because I kind of had the inside cover as well, which is, which was also like, hey, this is this is interesting. Totally, totally cool. Yeah. I mean, there's some covers that weren't as good, but at that point, like, I was so sold, like, like I loved it.
But, but yeah that first cover meant so good. And the new release, that re-release that they've just done where they basically kind of took the same cover, but it's got like a white background and stuff now.
00;07;20;06 - 00;07;23;06
Thad
Oh the 30th anniversary one I think.
00;07;23;06 - 00;08;25;11
Michael Livingston
Yeah. So tight, like so tight I, I love it, I love it. It's so cool. So yeah, I, I was just captivated and the, and the first, you know, I read the first two chapters I think… the prologue and the first chapter, in the store they had like those big comfy cushy chairs and I just like sat down and, and lost an hour of my life and I was like, Oh, you know, gonna lose a lot more than that pretty soon.
So yeah, it was, it was it was just a cool, a cool start to a story. And, you know, at that point, I could already see, I mean, I was 15 years old or whatever, you know, you could see that, that Jordan was doing stuff with history and with myth. You could, even in those first two chapters, it was like “He's playing with some stuff here”, and that obviously is kind of like what has led ultimately to this book, which is about that, you know, about what he's what he's doing with it.
00;08;25;29 - 00;08;31;21
Doll
Right? So if you were part of Randland, where do you see yourself?
00;08;33;07 - 00;09;02;11
Michael Livingston
Oh, okay. So like I know I should say something like Lan, right? You know, like, like badass. Right. You know, be like, oh, you know, totally awesome. I mean, I guess like I saw it on the wall behind me, uh, but, you know, as I'm getting old, so I feel like that's probably those days have passed me probably Loial, you know, I mean, that kind of like, you know, I'm going to I'm going to keep keep track of the history, you know, be a part of things.
00;09;02;11 - 00;09;04;12
Thad
Always got a book in your pocket.
00;09;04;12 - 00;09;33;09
Michael Livingston
Yeah, got a book in my pocket. I'm doing some research, you know, like, yeah, we got to we got to have this fight, you know. But also after the fight's done, I really want to talk about that fancy arch over there. I've never really seen that architecture before. That I think that's probably that's probably me. That's probably just trying to, you know, trying to record things and trying to keep track of it all.
But still a little bit there. Yeah, it'd probably be something like that. I mean, I wish I could say it was something more grand, but.
00;09;33;20 - 00;09;42;09
Doll
I think that's a great place to be because I love Loial and he's just awesome. And somebody has to be the historian.
00;09;42;09 - 00;09;43;02
Michael Livingston
Somebody’s gotta be, that’s right.
00;09;43;11 - 00;09;45;00
Thad
Who doesn't love Loial?
00;09;45;00 - 00;09;46;24
Michael Livingston
Yeah, that's right. I mean, he's so good. He's so good.
00;09;46;29 - 00;10;01;09
Dianna
Well, he's beloved. And that is essentially what you're doing is he was what the recorder the historian for Rand’s journey and the journey of all of our heroes and. In Origins you are recording the journey that Robert Jordan went on to write these books.
00;10;01;09 - 00;10;03;23
Michael Livingston
Yeah, yeah.
00;10;03;23 - 00;10;04;22
Dianna
That’s essentially what you did.
00;10;05;12 - 00;11;07;08
Michael Livingston
Yeah, that makes me really like weirdly nervous. I mean, you know, it is, it is a weird thing how much how much, like, weight I, I feel with all of this. And I actually had a long conversation with Brandon Sanderson during the process of this, you know, talking with him. And we were talking a lot of stuff that was just like, you know, for the book. But then I was also like, dude, how do you handle it? You know, like, how do you like just, you know, what do you… like, from the other side? You've been doing it for a while, like, like give me some pointers and stuff because yeah, it is kind of it is kind of strange feeling like, like you're holding a little bit of that of that mantle for somebody that can no longer hold it for themselves and somebody you know that that was such a big important part of your life, you know, and you know, as an important part of other people's lives.
But but yeah, I've certainly I've done my best. That’s what I’ll say. Done my best.
00;11;07;12 - 00;11;11;28
Dianna
Talk us through that. How did you learn that you were being tapped to write the Wheel of Time Origins?
00;11;13;19 - 00;13;54;27
Michael Livingston
So I learned in an email from Harriet in May 2021. So this the idea, in some ways the idea for this goes way back. There had been a… a plan for me to do a sort of biography of Jim, Robert Jordan, and that for all sorts of reasons, like we weren't ready for it and it just like we weren't, we decided not to do it.
And so like that was kind of there. And then I was actually my, my, my current agent, Paul Stevens, who was the person who was the editor at Tor, who bought my book series, Shards of Heaven. But then he became my agent. He was the agent or sorry, the editor who represented Tor for Wheel of Time. So he knew everybody very, very well.
And yeah, we were just in a conversation and he said, you know, you should do a book on the Wheel of Time. And I said, “Well, you know, we kind of talked about doing one before and, you know, just didn't feel like people were ready to do it.” And he said “Ah, maybe you should talk, maybe you should ask Harriet again. You know, like just ask her.”
And, and so I kind of put together like a like “this is what I want to do” and sent it with the assumption that she would, you know, not want to do it. And, you know, because of what I was asking, because I was asking for something kind of big, right, I want access to everything.
And yeah, she wrote back an email and it was magnificent. The first line was just, it was like, “Dearest Mike.” (laughter) And then she said, “I'd love you to do this book.” And then she proceeded to tell me that she'd already talked to Tor about it. She had already talked, like it, like everybody knew at that point.
It was like, like, “Yeah, I want you to do this book. And also, you know, like the publisher wants it and they want it by this date. And we're going to arrange this and that.” like, oh, like that went from 0 to 100 really fast. So yeah, it was, it was in the end it was an email and, and yeah, they were, they were incredibly gracious. Everybody was incredibly gracious and gave me access to like anything I wanted, anyone I wanted to talk to at any time. You know, I had the call list for, you know, for anybody for, you know, if I want to talk to Tom Doherty, the publisher of Tor. Yeah. Here's his number calling whatever you want.
00;13;54;27 - 00;13;56;04
Thad
How much did you actually utilize that list?
00;13;56;12 - 00;15;45;14
Michael Livingston
I used everything. I talked to everybody and some of them multiple times because, you know, look, this there's only one shot. You know, I want to get it right. And the nightmare scenario is that I at the end, look back and wish that I had done whatever, right? You know, that I had gone, you know, stayed that extra half hour at the archive or whatever it was.
And so like from the beginning, I was like, I'm like, I am not going to face that in the future. Like I am going to have put every ounce of effort that I can into this. I'm going to talk to everybody until they hate me for talking to them. Like, I'm, like, I'm going to read every scrap. It was it was really intense. It was really intense. And so, yeah, I did. I availed myself of everybody.
And what was amazing about it is, is nobody hated me for it. I fully expected them to be like you. “You just stop like stop bothering us.” And instead it was, it was like, “Yeah, like, what more do you want?” And I'm like, God, nothing right now but in 10 minutes, I might. I might call you back and we'll see.
So, yeah, it was the other everybody was really, really super and, and yeah, just the opportunity to have full access to, you know, to all the notes, right? There's, there's a notes that are on public display, you know, here in Charleston, at the College of Charleston. But there's more stuff. And to have to have all of it and everybody was pretty special. Hope that answers your question.
00;15;46;01 - 00;15;46;18
Thad
Oh, yeah.
00;15;46;19 - 00;15;49;01
Dianna
Yes. 100%. Above and beyond.
00;15;49;25 - 00;16;08;14
Thad
Yeah, definitely. But knowing that characters and places are based on real world myths, in your research for the Origins of the Wheel of Time, did you come across anything while you were researching a character that made you, you know, realize, “Hey, I've done this in other academia research?”
00;16;08;29 -00;18;56;11
Michael Livingston
Yeah, it did. So, yeah. So my like main claim to fame, I guess internationally is like as a, a military historian and, and this was, I wouldn't say like THE driving force intellectually for Jordan, but it was like absolutely a huge part of his intellectual interest was military history. And so, like, I knew a lot of that stuff was going to be there and it was really, REALLY cool to, to like to get into that, right. And see, all right. You know, for this for this battle, like the battle of Malden, for instance. Right? So like there is a there is a battle of Malden, like historically, there's a historical battle of Maldon, which has a amazing, it's fragmentary, but it's amazing old English poem associated with it, which is which is just cool. It's like an old English poem that I've translated and stuff because it's because fricking cool.
And so like, like I knew it, but I knew, look he didn't, his battle of Malden is different from the battle of Maldon, and it's not a spelling thing. Like they are fundamentally different battles right. So he's he's clearly he knows about the battle of Maldon, but has chosen not to redo the battle of Maldon, but he is using the name. But, you know, so what has he done with, you know, the battle of Maldon, you know, like in the end, like, what has he made? Well, it's most of the battle of Crécy, which I've run several books about because I'm like totally into the battle of Crécy. And so and just a book come out in July I think it was my new book on the battle of Crécy. And so yeah, like seeing okay here's where he's using Crécy, right? But here's where he got that name. He got it from Maldon. And that happens sort of constantly this this constant, you know, him making contact with the world that I do, you know, in my day to day was was really strange. Like, I mean, really cool. But, like, it sort of gives you shivers sometimes when you, you know, you're like, I was I was I was teaching that this morning. Like, what? Like, what's what's going on? You know, now that I'm and now I'm writing about Jordan doing this in the Wheel of Time, it's really neat to have that. And he did that in ways large and he did that in ways very, very small.
00;18;57;29 - 00;18;59;01
Doll
That's really interesting.
00;19;00;11 - 00;20;13;12
Michael Livingston
Yeah. And I've tried I've tried to in the book... So I have a I have a word count that I like, that I couldn't make the book as long as I could like, it had it had to be a certain length. And so, like, within that was like, well, I want to give as much a flavor for what's happening here as possible.
And so, you know, I've, I've, I've noted some things that were like very small, you know, it's kind of like in a sense, I don't want to say they don't matter. Obviously, they matter to us. We're fans of this stuff, but aren't like, “Oh my God, it's that huge thing,” you know, it's like a little thing. And but you know, he was doing stuff with that little thing, but then he's also doing stuff with this big stuff.
So like trying to sort of give you a sense of, of how his mind worked and how he constructed things and why he was constructing it that way was really tremendously important to me. And so, yeah, it did end up reflecting a lot back on, like, on my work and you know, it was just...
00;20;15;00 - 00;20;16;03
Thad
How giddy were you?
00;20;16;16 - 00;20;44;20
Michael Livingston
Well, I was giddy. It was, you know, somebody said during this process there was somebody and I, I won't say who it is and I don't know why they would not want me to say that, but I didn't ask them if I could quote them, so I won't. But somebody said, you know, they said, “You realize you're the only person going to write this book and, you know, the only person who who can who can grasp everything that he had.”
And I was like, “I don't I'm not sure I like that idea that…there’s no one in particular like that,” you know, like that's that's kind of strange, but I mean,
Dianna
No pressure.
00;21;01;23 - 00;21;31;19
Michael Livingston
It's yeah, yeah, yeah. It was kind of weird, like, oh, you know what? If I get hit by a bus tomorrow, does the work never get done? Like, that's not good, but. But it was just these constant points of contact that, you know, the teeniest little thing that he had that he kind of left as a clue or whatever as was, I know what that is, like. That's weird. It's weird that I know what that is, like. That's why the hell do I know what that is, you know? And it enabled things to, to come together. And, you know, what I hope is going to really people are really, really going to love that. People are really going to enjoy to see this this side of things.
00;21;33;00 - 00;21;43;04
Thad
I definitely enjoyed the small details, a lot of stuff like you'll see a name mentioned here and you're just like, I know what that you know, I know what that is. And I don't even, you know, follow it like you do.
00;21;44;16 - 00;22;07;29
Michael Livingston
Yeah. I mean, it's cool. It's cool to know things and Jordan was he knew so much stuff and like, it's all in there and, you know, and his life is in there. And I, you know, got a lot on that, too. You know, his life was in there. And, you know, where he'd been, the people he knew. It's it's wild.
00;22;08;16 - 00;22;21;01
Doll
It's really fascinating. Like, I'm not huge on the military stuff, so I miss a lot of it. So it'll be interesting to read, you know, what I don't know because I don't know that I don't know it.
00;22;21;01 - 00;22;38;09
Michael Livingston
Well, I, I, I wrote the book in the most, you know, kind of like accessible way possible, right? Like not as a, like not as a specialist or, you know, you don’t have to be a military historian because then, like, you know, what I'm getting into.
00;22;38;17 - 00;22;41;17
Doll
I have a basic grasp of it, but I don’t know the details.
00;22;41;26 - 00;22;42;29
Michael Livingston
Right? Yeah. Yeah.
00;22;43;01 - 00;22;54;10
Thad
From, from what I read, from what I understood, he encapsulated kind of being in the field of battle, what it felt like compared to like, you know, a Hollywood video or Hollywood movie of it or something.
00;22;54;10 - 00;22;54;20
Doll
Yeah.
00;22;55;11 - 00;23;24;08
Michael Livingston
Yeah, Hollywood. But they're terrible. They're terrible. Yeah. No, he does. He does a great job. And, you know, a lot of it comes from his own war experience. Which I do, which I do talk about in the book. So the, you know, one of the first chapters is, you know, basically a biography of Robert Jordan and, you know, what he had experienced and been through because it is part of the books, it’s part of what he created.
00;23;24;08 - 00;23;41;17
Dianna
So kind of on the flip side of that, what's something that you learned or that you were surprised by that you learned when you were working on the book and you can be as general or specific as possible, not trying to get you to talk about certain characters.
00;23;41;17 - 00;26;55;18
Michael Livingston
I can tell you absolutely of the things that are in the book. I can tell you absolutely. The thing that surprised me the most, without question. And it's, and it surprised me because it surprised all of us.
So he refers to the staple crop of the Aiel is “zemai” and like it's like look it's the word it's it's it's “corn” is what it is, right, which is “maize”, M A I Z, ZED E for any people north of the border listening it.
So like he scrambled the letters. That's what I thought. If you just scramble the letters of maize to make zemai and, and like it, it actually kind of like bugged me because this is not how he normally did things. This is, this is like a very unusual that this would be the case, but it's obvious that's the case.
And so so I wrote that this was the case. Right. And talked about, you know, what's going on here. And this is you know, this is really maize. And they make oosquai with it, which of course, is whiskey. And Jordan was a big fan of whiskey, as am I. So like, that was fun. And I was like, oh, this is cool.
And, and look, every… like, everybody read it. Everybody was like, “Yep, nailed it.” And then I got an email like the book is done basically like it’s done, and I get an email from Maria who's read the book at this point, like five, six times and, and Maria writes me and says, “Yeah. So I was watching Jeopardy last night and on Jeopardy there was a question about the scientific name for maize and the scientific name for maize is “Zea mays.” And I think that's where he got it from.” And I'm like, “Oh yeah, obviously that's where he got it from.” Like, that's yes. And like and so now it does in fact fit with this is how he did things and now it actually fits.
Instead of being like the one because up to that point, like this is the one anomaly to his practice of doing things and instead it wasn't an anomaly and he'd actually like, but he spelled it so it was re scrambled maize, which he probably thought was hilarious and like this hilarious like Easter egg joke that he had for himself.
And like just because Maria happened to be watching Jeopardy! that night, they happened to have a question about this. She happened to have just read that entry that afternoon. So it was like fresh in her head and as like the kicker to the whole damn thing. The host of Jeopardy was, of course, Brandon Sanderson's former roommate.
00;26;55;26 - 00;26;57;02
Doll Oh, Ken Jennings, yeah.
00;26;57;13 - 00;26;58;05
Michael Livingston
It was Ken Jennings yeah.
00;26;58;05 - 00;26;58;26
Thad
Oh, man.
00;26;59;10 - 00;27;03;02
Michael Livingston
And so I'm like, well, okay.
00;27;03;02 - 00;27;04;29
Thad
That's the universe giving a sign right there.
00;27;05;03 - 00;27;31;21
Michael Livingston
The Wheel turns in mysterious ways, like, all right, let me go change that, change that entry. So, yeah, that one is like of the things that are in the book that's the thing that, that like most surprised me because it was just and again, it surprised all of us like, you know, Harriet had read it, everybody had read it. Everybody was like, “That's how it is.” And then by chance, lightning struck. And yeah, well, I was wrong. I was 100% wrong. And I'm so happy I'm wrong. Like it's so great.
00;27;31;21 - 00;27;50;00
Dianna
I'm so glad that you did this book to give him the credit for all of those little things that I'm sure he slipped in there that we as fans like kind of noticed but may not know for sure. And now we will just have them confirmed. That's what I'm most excited for, is to see the little things that he dribbled in here and there.
00;27;51;01 - 00;27;55;27
Michael Livingston
Yeah, he was a he was a clever guy. He was a clever guy for sure. Yeah.
00;27;56;09 - 00;28;07;03
Doll
So I don't know if that actually answers this next question or maybe there's another one, but is there anything, any particular subject that was the longest it took you to research?
00;28;08;23 - 00;28;12;08
Michael Livingston
The longest that it took me to research. Oh, man.
00;28;13;03 - 00;28;15;18
Doll
Not including random Jeopardy.
00;28;16;06 - 00;29;31;09
Michael Livingston
Yeah, random jeopardy. Like things just popping up. So I don't think I can say, oh, I'll say this. Okay, I'll say this. Um, there were a couple of things that I, I knew he had took on from somewhere, and I just like for the life of me, could not figure them out. And, and it was and like days like just constant like what? Sleepless nights trying to figure out what what he had done with something. There were a couple of those and, you know, in some degrees, those are the most fun. The others, others, I spent a lot of time researching not because it was hard to know what he did, but because I fell down the rabbit hole like, you know, because he's dealing this like such a variety of stuff.
So I got like when it, like when it comes out, Aludra’s entry. So I adore her. I think she's awesome.
00;29;31;16 - 00;29;32;25
Thad
She's one of my favorites.
00;29;33;06 - 00;29;35;28
Dianna
She’s so cool.
00;29;35;28 - 00;30;56;22
Michael Livingston
Yeah, she's awesome. So her entry is not very long. I mean, because I only get so much space, right? I can’t just go on and on about these things. I'm just “here's the information, like move on.” So like her entry in the glossary is not huge, half a page or something, but the like that, like the, the story that I, that I tell you about, about where her name comes from. Like I kind of knew that going in, but I bet I wasted a full day just because it's just a crazy story about like, who she's based on kind of thing. And like, not, I didn't like, need to spend a day researching that for what I wrote. It was just like, this is cool. Like, we just keep reading about this, like, and I was just gone and then I'm like, “God, that's not good. I should not be spending that much time on like, I wrote the intro this morning. I'm done. Like, what am I doing? Why am I still…”, like, because it's awesome. And I like to think that actually that is something that would have pleased him very much, that he would have really enjoyed somebody, first of all, figuring out like, “Oh, you got that name. Are you kidding? Really? You put that in there?” and then that they got sort of captivated by history.
00;30;56;25 - 00;30;57;07
Doll
Mmhm.
00;30;57;21 - 00;31;38;20
Michael Livingston
And we're, like I said, kind of down the rabbit hole like, and we're gone for a while, you know, like, like I like to think that he would have enjoyed that because, because yeah. I mean I was, I was sitting right, literally right where I am right now. Like doing that. And, and yeah, at a certain point I did a lot of talking to, to him while I was writing this book.
And yeah, a lot of was like, like, “What are you doing to me? Like, Oh, come on, man.” Like, I got, I got to work more, you know, like, and yeah. So there were, there were entries that took a long time to figure out. And there were entries that took a long time just because that's cool stuff. Like it was cool stuff that he had in there.
Good question.
00;31;38;20 - 00;31;42;26
Thad
When you have complete, unfettered access to all of this information, I'd be doing the same thing.
00;31;44;22 - 00;31;58;06
Michael Livingston
Yeah, yeah. I mean, you got. Yeah. (laughing) Because the and the information is not well organized. I should say.
00;31;58;14 - 00;32;00;23
Doll
Oh, I’ve been to the carriage house like….
00;32;00;23 - 00;33;14;10
Michael Livingston
Anybody who’s dealt with the notes knows it's bad. Yeah. It's not, it's not super good and, and like the, the archive is not well arranged or whatever. And that's, that's nobody's fault. That's just the way that, that he kept his files, for instance, is like he knew he knew where the heck things were. But, you know, it's a bit like one of my great friends and colleagues doesn't organize his library, you know, like, like, you know, I mean, we're both historians. You know, mine are, you know, like this section is Hundred Years of war. You know, this section is my, you know, middle English stuff. You know, this is like this is just that's just where I put that book. You know, like, like that's not that's not organized, man, you know? But if you ask him, he knows where everything is. “Well, it's the book that's over there, you know, and it's it's next to that green one.” You know, “Why are those next to each other?” “That’s just where I put them.” Like, that's kind of the way Jordan was with his own notes is he knew where stuff was. And so for us trying to like find something in it, it can be a little bit daunting. It helps to digitize them all.
00;33;14;10 - 00;33;27;07
Thad
Oh, I'm sure. Absolutely. So when working on this project, did you by chance come to a new appreciation for any segment of the Wheel of Time series that you may not have liked as much before?
00;33;27;28 - 00;35;49;29
Michael Livingston
That's a good question. I came to a better appreciation of early Nynaeve, you know, when I first read the books. And obviously, you know, it's kind of like a weird question. I mean, I was like a 15 year old kid, a 15 year old male kid, like, just Nynaeve, I was like, “What is this?” like, what's going on here? Like, it's just I was mostly annoyed by her, like, stop tugging your hair. Like, it's just what is going... it just didn't do anything for me. Now her character changes drastically over the course of the books, which is one of things that Jordan was so phenomenal at, is, you know, character arcs and development and so so she'd not only change, and I obviously I grew as a human being and I grew to appreciate her, but to go back and see how central she was from the like the moments of inception, like that she was there. I mean, so many other main characters that people think of as like “That is such a central character.” No. They didn't exist, like, but she did. She did like from the beginning. And to see why that was and how deeply that was, I was, it was really kind of humbling for me. I was sort of like, you know, looking back at my younger self like, you idiot, you know, like, I mean, try to be nice to yourself, you know, I was like young kid, whatever. But, you know, I'm like, dude, like, how did you miss the boat so much? You know? And and so, yeah, I really do. You know, since obviously in the course of all this to read books again, how many times now? But, you know, looking at it through that lens of, you know, this is what I know he was doing from the beginning and then reading what he's what he's doing from the beginning, you know, in the actual actual books, that was very, very cool to me to really recognize that and and get such a better sense of, of what's going on, like behind, the strings behind the scenes, you know. So definitely I would I would say it was Nynaeve, was the the thing that I, I really kind of like kicked myself for not seeing as powerfully as I do now.
00;35;50;09 - 00;35;57;11
Dianna
That's so exciting. I, like,...
00;35;57;11 - 00;35;57;18
Michael Livingston
Yeah.
00;35;57;23 - 00;36;26;16
Dianna
Also was struggling with Nynaeve, especially when I was younger. She was so annoying. Um, so annoying. But I've talked to other friends who are huge Nynaeve fans and they have brought up to me like, “No, but she's so central to Rand's journey, she is essential to her answer, and she sets this this role in his life that really helps him,” and that's made me have a greater appreciation for her as a character.
So I'm excited to see how she was central to the process.
00;36;28;24 - 00;37;20;22
Michael Livingston
I mean, if she does is fine. You know, there's no there's no wrong way to fan or whatever. But yeah, certainly for me, I definitely have a different, a different view on her than, than I once did and, and, and yeah. Seeing, seeing that the notes and I try and talk about that, you know, in the book obviously, you know, and talk about how she developed even, even before, you know, before he starts writing the books like he's he's thinking about, you know, I mean, he's thinking about the books, right? But Eye of the World hasn't been begun yet. He's just grappling with, you know, “I'm going to do this thing. I don't really know what it is.” And she's already like, there. That's pretty cool. I think so, yeah. You'll like those pages, I think.
00;37;20;29 - 00;37;22;01
Thad
Oh, absolutely.
00;37;23;13 - 00;37;31;10
Dianna So excited.
Do you have a favorite real world reference or parallel from the Wheel of Time?
00;37;31;10 - 00;38;01;26
Michael Livingston
Yeah, I do. I do and it's totally self-serving, or not self-serving, but self-referential. So where I'm sitting here at the at the desk here in his chair, I have a window beside me and out that window I can see the White Tower and I really like that. So, you know, he went to the Citadel, which is where I am, where I teach.
00;38;02;27 - 00;40;01;13
Micheal Livingston
And and this is where the White Tower is. So the White Tower is on campus. It is there's there are lots of white towers in the world. But, you know, when he was making White Tower, he was thinking of it's called Padgett Thomas Barracks and it’s literally right there. And like when I first came to the Citadel for my job, like I like I did, I walked past it I was like “That’s interesting. Like, hmm, I wonder if there's a like…” and this sort of like events you felt yeah there's that gets the white tower like dude yeah that's literally the White Tower like that's cool so so is definitely my favorite, but that's like I get to see it everyday. So, so yeah, that makes me, that makes me happy and, and it makes me smile because of so many things that he's playing with. The Citadel had been an all male school, military college, and of course, the White Tower that he makes, like flips all that around. Like he loved doing things like that. He he just, like, thought they were. It was fun. Like, this is this is so, you know, cool to do this. And if anybody realizes what I've done, they're probably going to laugh like and and they also might recognize that this is also but there's a point to it like that. It's it is kind of, you know, like, like funny or, I don't know, funny is the right word. But like, you know, like clever or whatever that he did this. But also like, like there is a point like, like making this all male reference, an all female reference, like, like there's a reason for that. And it's central to the work of the Wheel of Time. Like it's central to what he is doing in this entire series. And so yeah, that one’s my favorite. And it’s right there, so.
00;40;01;25 - 00;40;07;16
Thad
It must be nice looking out the window every day.
Dianna
It's so cool.
Thad
Yeah.
00;40;08;10 - 00;40;44;13
Michael Livingston
It's, you know, but you got to work, right? You know, it's like, I can't just sit here and just be like, I'm touching his desk. Like, I have to work. Like, I got to get to bed, I got to get things done. But is it's hard not to sometimes because it I mean, look, I'm looking at it right now like, you know, like I know where his elbows laid, you know, because of the way the finish is worn, you know, like, because you're sitting there like, do my elbows go there. They shouldn't go there. That shouldn't be like like. Yeah, it's, it's very strange.
00;40;44;13 - 00;40;45;06
Thad
Absolutely.
00;40;45;10 - 00;40;46;10
Dianna
I have chills hearing it.
00;40;46;10 - 00;40;48;01
Micheal Livingston
It's it's weird. It's weird.
00;40;48;01 - 00;41;06;27
Thad
So so why don't we go a little bit north from there? So Arafel is one of the countries that we only get small scraps of information about culture wise and fashion wise. So is there any chance some of Robert Jordan's notes have more info on Arafel that'll make it into the book?
00;41;06;27 - 00;42;10;28
Michael Livingston
Yes, not a lot. Not a lot. But I do have an intro on Arafel. So the, you know Arafel does get its name from the Bible. If you don't know, Genesis 14:1. Genesis 14:1 references a king of Shinar whose name is Amraphel. That's where he gets Arafel from. That's also where he gets another name from. If you follow the , if you follow the bouncing dot and of course culturally it's getting it's echoing the step cultures and and the capital of Shol Arbela comes from the Persian city of Arbela. So yeah he's he's pulled together kind of three major strands there. You know, to, to get the basis of it. Yeah. So, so yes, there's, there you go. There's a little bit of a little bit of knowledge dropped. Yeah. But he didn't, he didn't have like a, like a book of Arafel or anything like that.
00;42;12;04 - 00;42;31;00
Doll
Our last question is specific for our site, at TarValon.Net we do a Tar Valon to Tear challenge every year and we like to make sure that our mileage is super accurate. And we know the new maps have come out. What is the exact distance between Tar Valon and Tear in either miles or kilometers?
00;42;31;24 - 00;45;23;15
Michael Livingston
No idea. I have no idea.(laughter) Honestly, no idea. Whatever number you're using is dead accurate as far as I'm concerned. Yeah.
So I mean, the new map doesn't change the dimensionality of the Westland. It changes in some fairly considerable ways the rest of the world, but does not change that. So yeah, whatever number you're working with is, is probably right.
I never found a, like a, like a master scale that I can sort of apply. Part of that is intentional on his part. He joked about this a lot in answers to people where they would say, well, you know, “What about this? What about that? The information on this?” And he'd say, well, you know, “Look, we're getting this all through the filter of different culture and we're getting it through a filter of, you know, what these people know and how it's been handed down to us.” And so it's all kind of garbled, you know, like that wasn't just like an easy way out of answering a question. Like, that's part of how he built the whole thing. It's actually just the honest truth and so that applies to the maps as well.
And I don't talk about this in the book, but I'll talk about it now. If you look across all of the maps, maps from Eye of the World to the maps in Memory of Light, there are inconsistencies like, like you can't you can't make them all work. Something has to give somewhere along the line that didn't bother him. I don't know that it was directly intentional like the he gave like “Fudge this a little bit this way so it's kind of wrong.” I don't have like a smoking gun that he did that but if he was aware of it happening, he was like, cool. Like let's, let's leave it that way, because it can't quite work because it's coming from memory like and this is, you know, this is something that, you know, that is how we deal with history, right? This is what I do every day, is try and figure out what happened. Right. You know, so I'm in the battle of Crécy, as an example, that battle’s fought in 1346. I have 81 sources literally on my desk that talk about the battle. None of them match. So like what happened? I like like what actually happened, like who's right? And I have to be in this position of trying to sort through that in order to make the best argument I can, backed by the most information I can, you know, that makes the most sense I can about what happened.
And that's how anything in history is. Right. You know, none of us has full knowledge about I mean, anything that even happened to ourselves, like, frankly. Right. We're like there's like this constant missing information. And he wanted to make that reality part of the Wheel of Time, because the Wheel of Time was reality. Yeah, it's intrinsic to it. So. So, no, I don't I don't know how many miles or kilometers or leagues or.
00;45;23;16 - 00;45;24;28
Thad
Spans.
00;45;24;28 - 00;45;47;29
Michael Livingston
You know, whatever floats your boat. Yes. Spans like, whatever floats your boat. That's that's what it is. It's a good distance, I'll tell you that. It's a good distance. It's a haul. It's a haul. I wouldn't want to walk it. I definitely would not because that's that's a long way to walk. That's what I would do. Good question, though.
00;45;48;06 - 00;45;54;16
Dianna
Those are the questions that we have for you. But do you have anything that you want to ask us about?
00;45;54;16 - 00;46;13;21
Michael Livingston
I'm scared to because, look, you know, if I asked you, like, you know, what is the thing you most want to know? And then I didn't give you that in the book. Like, I'm just going to feel miserable for the next weeks until the book comes out. So I would hope that when you all read the book, number one, that you cry.
00;46;13;22 - 00;46;22;17
Dianna
I will cry. I can confirm I cried at your talk at JordanCon, I cry at everything Wheel of Time related, I guarantee you I will cry.
00;46;22;20 - 00;46;24;22
Michael Livingston
You cried at my talk at JordanCon?
00;46;25;02 - 00;46;27;04
Dianna
I love the Wheel of Time so much, I cry every time.
00;46;29;22 - 00;46;32;06
Michael Livingston
Like like. Like this last JordanCon? You cried?
00;46;32;09 - 00;46;35;06
Dianna
Yeah. Yeah, a little.
00;46;36;25 - 00;46;39;01
Micheal Livingston
That's so sweet. Oh.
00;46;40;02 - 00;47;08;26
Micheal Livingston
Yeah. You're going to cry. Yeah, you're going to bawl. You're going to be gone. I mean, because I cried, you know? So, like, if I did you better, you know, like come on people. Yeah. The thing that got me was Harriet because she wrote the foreword for the book and I didn't know that was happening. So I'm sitting here on my desk and I get an email from Tor and they say, “Harriet's forward came in. Can you, can you just double check it to make sure, like, look, you know, it looks okay or whatever, whatever.” And then I’m like, “Her what?” And then like what? What happened then? And so and so. Yeah, I read it and I cried and I was powerless. It was kind of just personal. I mean, she's very kind to me and, and then when it was announced that I was doing this, I wrote a I wrote a letter to the readers, that's in the book. So, so hopefully that makes people cry. That’s be cool.
But but yeah, just beyond that, the story of his life and of course, about his death, I think is going to move people. And it certainly did me, there's some stuff in there that that nobody has known about and it's going to be, is going to be captivating to people that, you know, again, I was kind of always in this, you know, do I do I keep, do I keep this in the books or, you know, do I if I lose that, I can put this in the book, you know, like like what am I going to fit in the box? And and there was stuff that I was like, this is going in the box. And it may not be you know, somebody might have wished that I had one more entry in the glossary, but no, dammit, you're going to get this story. And I bloody well hope you cry.
And so, so yeah there's, there's stuff like that that I think is going to move people and I hope move people and, and I really just hope that the people walk away, you know, with a better side, better like, like people have a bad impression of Jordan because they don't. Obviously we all love it, but like a better appreciation, like like a richer appreciation of, of, of who he was and what he was doing and how he was doing it. And and that that, you know, informs, it doesn't have to change anything. It's just it's a, I think, a wonderful thing to see the fullness of the art that he was doing and to kind of really recognize that. So I'm just really hopeful that that's what people get out of the book. And that you cry. That too.
00;49;38;01 - 00;49;44;16
Thad
Well, hey, we're getting we're getting more Wheel of Time content in the year 2022. I can't… I'm I'm very happy about that.
00;49;45;26 - 00;51;01;05
Michael Livingston
Yeah. Well I'm glad, I'm really glad to hear that. There's some unpublished stuff in there, well a lot of them, there's thousands of unpublished words in there. I did, I did a word count at one point and that was and it was insane. It was thousands of unpublished words and, which again was one of those things like I kept asking and they kept saying yes. And and I'm like, I can't believe you're going to say you're going to say yes to this. You know, like I want to I want to publish this huge, like, chunk of this and you're okay. Like they kept saying, “Yeah, sure. Go ahead.” And that's neat. I mean, it was neat for me to see that. It is still neat for me as I've read it I don't know how many times and and that's and that's exciting to see for me.
And yeah, there's secrets that like Nakomi is in there, though honestly, like, look, nothing's going to nothing's going to match the hype, you know? I mean, look, people have been for years, like like there's literally there's literally no answer where everybody is going to be like that more than I ever expected. It's just not going be the case. I have to tell you.
00;51;01;05 - 00;51;02;17
Thad
You got to keep your expectations a little little tempered on it.
00;51;04;02 - 00;51;05;00
Micheal Livingston
Yeah, there's just there is...
00;51;05;10 - 00;51;06;20
Thad I mean, I've been trying.
00;51;04;02 - 00;51;09;20
Doll
So people have had so many years to develop these wild theories that are just…
00;51;10;05 - 00;51;12;29
Thad
You know, it's it's just generation or two of who killed Asmodean.
00;51;37;05 - 00;51;13;27
Doll
It is.
00;51;14;19 - 00;52;20;21
Michael Livingston
Which which I talk about. You know, Nakomi is in there because, I'm trying to think how to explain this. Nakomi is in there because this is a story about how he was making the Wheel of Time because, because this is not a replacement for, or in addition to really, the Wheel of Time Companion. Right? That is all that is a book that is. I describe it as being in-world focus. Like it's just looking within and like, well, this is the story of, you know, this king or that part. Like it's it's all that like plot stuff. This is flipping completely around and looking outward, kind of at our world. So, like, you know, explaining who Nakomi is like identifying her, it wouldn't fit except that it does, is how I will say that like so, it made sense. It made sense to be in there. But it's not you're not going to get like, oh, here's all this stuff about this character and what their childhood was like or something like that. Like, it's not that, but, but hopefully what you're finding out is going to, yeah, you're going to be captivated.
00;52;20;21 - 00;52;21;29
Doll
Sounds very fascinating.
00;52;22;17 - 00;52;26;16
Michael Livingston
Yeah. Was for me,(laughter) was for me, was for me.
00;52;27;16 - 00;52;35;04
Thad
So how did you I guess how did you wrestle the reveal for this away from Sanderson? Because I think I remember you speaking about this at JordanCom.
00;52;36;11 - 00;54;18;18
Michael Livingston
No wrestling involved. He offered it to me. We were talking and I said, “Look, I have an entry on Nakomi. Do you want me to cut it?” Because, you know, he had promised that he would explain Nakomi on certain timeline basically. And the book will come out before that timer is up. And I said, “Look, you know, Brandon, I will, I'll cut it.” And he said, no. And in fact, then he said, he said, “You know, I'll, let me write something for you for it.” And so, so yeah we actually get in for the Nakomi entry is is actually Brandon is me and then kind of like I sort of like hand the microphone to Brandon and then you get Brandon's spiel.
You know, again, is one of these like the collaborative-ness of this, you know, there was there was like no hesitate for him. He was just like he was like, “No, you know, what would be better is why don't I just why not just write this thing and you put it in your book,” like, let's just do that.
And oh, okay. Like, I'm fine with that. Yeah. Like, do I owe you anything for that? Like, you know, and it's like, “No, just take it.” So yeah, you get, it's like two paragraphs or something from him talking about it and then a little bit from me. So I didn't have to wrestle it. He just that's just Brandon. Brandon is just a, Brandon is a cool dude we all know that, he really is a cool dude and he was so so gracious like because he's you know, he's got a lot going on in his own life and talking to me was not on that like list. And but as soon as he knew this was happening, he was like, “All right, you know, you got my you got my attention. Like, what do you what do you want to when you want to talk, how often do you wanna talk? Like, let's let's do it” so yeah, he's he's a great guy.
00;54;19;24 - 00;54;43;29
Doll
I think what strikes me the most is like having been involved with the Wheel of Time as long as I have, is that everybody involved is just as much a fan of it and it's just as interested in seeing the story be told as the readers are. It doesn't surprise me that they gave you so much access and that they were so gracious about everything because they want to hear these stories, too.
00;54;44;14 - 00;57;01;22
Michael Livingston
Yeah, I think I think you're right. And it is obviously very gratifying and I, you know, I mean, with the maps, you know, when they when I said, well, this is what I found means like the map and you'll hear all this.. By the time is airing people would know this story. You know, that there was there was this information in the maps and like, oh, so we're doing a map. And Tor was like, Yeah. And Harriet said, Yeah, we got a new map. And you know what? Elisa Mitchell should do it because she's the one who did the actual Westland map that everybody loves and so they got on the phone and alright, Elisa is doing the map, you know, and that that kept happening at every turn. Like the copy editor. The copy editor for my book is Robert Jordan's copy editor. Like that they made sure like who who touched the Wheel of Time touches this book. Like, that it will be like it will have that glow or whatever. And you know that I wasn't, like that’s stuff I wasn't asking for. I'm like, you know, I mean, obviously if there's going to be a copy editor involved, you know, but they're like, Oh, yeah, know, we got this person. I kind of got the impression like they were retired, like, I don't know, but I kind of got this impression like we actually convinced, you know, this person to do the copyediting ‘cause they’re the Wheel of Time copy editor, you know, and like. And they're thrilled to do it, you know, and having the same readers for the audio book, you know.
So we've got with the audio book is, is, it's the main readers that everybody knows and a little bit of me. I'm, I'm doing my recording I think on Thursday actually and, and Harriet, so it's yeah it's the four of us doing the audio book and again just because because people want it to be a part of it because they, as you said, kind of have this generous connection to it and everybody kind of felt like it was this like almost like a way of closure to everything. There was just this moving quality to the whole thing that I really I really hope shines through in the final product.
00;57;02;22 - 00;57;04;13
Dianna
I didn't know you’d be in the audio book for this, but now I know.
00;57;05;24 - 00;57;08;05
Thad
Yeah, I think I'm going to have to now knowing this.
00;57;08;14 - 00;58;57;12
Micheal Livingston
It was fun. It was fun to do. And as will make sense when you read the book, it was also a nightmare for the narrators, for Michael and Kate. They, she actually tweeted, we had a wonderful tweet exchange. And I this past week because she tweeted about how she had just finished reading her part of the origins book and like was like it never had so much trouble with something because of all the different languages and all pronunciations for things.
And I was like, I was like, sorry, not sorry. What are you gonna do? They had, it was nightmare fuel for them they what production wrote me, what they do on an audio book is they will send to the author, and I had to do this for Shard of Heaven, for the Crécy books, for history, for fiction , doesn't matter.They send you like, here's a list of all the words we don't know how to pronounce. And then, like, you either write up pronunciations or you like record them. And so, you know, it's the record pronunciations, and they're usually like, I don't know, a couple of pages long. This thing was, I was just, I don't, it was like six, 600-700 words. It was enormous. They were like, we got no idea. We got nothing like what you want us to do. And so yeah, I sat there and I recorded for like an hour or 2 hours or something like that, recording all these things. And it was also it was a conversation too in, you know, I'm like, well, this is, this is how I'm pronouncing it, but also kind of should be pronounced this way. But, you know, in your audio books previously you did this word this way and really like so we don't want to screw people. Like, so there's all this like negotiation of trying to figure out just how are we going to process one word, right? Which is going to take 2 seconds in the audio book. Right. But we're all like it's like we gotta get it as right as we can.
00;58;57;12 - 00;58;59;15
Thad
10 hours of deliberation for 2 seconds of audio.
00;59;00;24 - 00;59;41;01
Michael Livingston
Right, 10 hours of deliberation. My God, we got it like, because we know we know that like because we're like you, right? It's going to matter and people are going to be, you know what? But I pronounce it this way. Am I doing it wrong? You know, and this like and we also picked out that kind of in the end, sort of silly in a sense, because like whatever your head canon is great, like whatever.
But all of a sudden I'm on the like I'm not a fan now. I'm actually I mean, I'm again, I'm still a fan, but like, like now they're, they're asking me to make it like a, like a canon decision, like, like from now on canon will be what comes out of your mouth, Mike, so what is it, you know.
00;59;41;09 - 00;59;42;11
Doll
Now you're Team Jordan.
00;59;43;06 - 01;00;54;09
Michael Livingston
Yeah. And I'm like, like, oh, what do I do with that? Like, I don't know. So yeah, it was, it was, you know, lots of things like that are, are, were I mean, they were stressful, whatever. Right? But they are wonderful in they're in there because everybody has this dedication to to get it right, you know, for you all and to make this what it is for you. Right. You know, this is this is not a book that I wrote for me. I wrote this for you. And I wrote it to like, you know, I've been given this privilege of having access to all this. How can I make you feel a part of that? How can I make you part of that? How can I make you see what I see? How can I make it something that means something to you? And that was just like the constant refrain that was in my head. And I know was , everybody who was lined up behind me, you know, they were just kind of helping hold me up, right, and helping hold me to that standard. And hopefully helping me meet that standard because they understood what I was doing and why and believed in it. So I just, you know, fingers crossed it worked and you all and you all love it, I hope.
01;00;55;09 - 01;00;56;18
Doll
I'm sure we will.
01;00;57;17 - 01;00;58;29
Thad
No, no doubt about that.
01;00;58;33 - 01;00;59;35
Dianna
I'm sure we will.
01;01;00;04 - 01;01;02;08
Thad
I am, like, chomping at the bit to get my hands on it.
01;01;02;08 - 01;01;36;17
Michael Livingston
November 8th, November 8th, everybody. Preorders I love, let's get the best seller list y’all. Let's do it. It would be it'd be really it would really be cool if if that happened, I think it would sort of be a shot across the bow for a lot of people that, you know, the Wheel of Time isn't a past thing. It's a present thing. And we can continue to like keep this train rolling and continue to have that love. And with the other show coming out and everything, I think it's I think it's a great time to be a fan.
01;01;31;28 - 01;01;33;26
Doll
There are no endings to the Wheel of Time.
01;01;34;26 - 01;01;36;00
Michael Livingston
That's right. That's right.
01;01;35;06 - 01;01;41;09
Thad
But while there are no endings to the Wheel of Time, I think we have come to the ending of this podcast.
01;01;41;25 - 01;01;43;00
Michael Livingston
Alas, alas.
01;01;43;03 - 01;01;44;13
Doll
I’m so glad you picked up on that.
01;01;45;26 - 01;01;46;15
Micheal Livingston
So well done.
01;01;46;28 - 01;01;52;16
Thad
Michael. Thank you so much for joining us today and answering all the burning questions that we had prepared.
01;01;52;24 - 01;01;53;19
Micheal Livingston
It was my pleasure.
01;01;53;26 - 01;02;00;26
Thad
If you'd like. If you would like, please plug anything you'd like here. Upcoming books. Interesting articles you're writing. Sky's the limit.
01;02;01;03 - 01;03;11;06
Michael Livingston
Sky's the limit? Look, if you're into medieval history or you’re into military history, read my book on Crécy, “Crécy. Battle of five Kings.” It's awesome. I love it so much. And it's for and it's for upper audience kind of thing. So if you're really into that, do that. But otherwise, you know, look just y’all… Origins. Like love it, live it and, and, you know, when it comes out, you know, if you like it, you know, leave good reviews and stuff like, you know, it's it's easy to forget what a difference that makes right in in algorithms and in the eyes of publishers. And, you know, I mean, look, we don't know we don't know if this if this does really well, you know, I mean, there are other things that could be done. I will say that. And would there be an interest in doing that, like. Well, I would hope so. So, you know, you know, preorders, I love, reviews. Be kind of one another y’all,l just, just be nice to one another. You know, the world's rough hug each other, high fives, thumbs up.
01;03;11;19 - 01;03;28;09
Thad
Thank you for joining us for this special edition of TarValon Talks. We hope this interview has pushed you over the edge and now you're out there pulling up your favorite book website. Pre-ordering the book right now. But if you've already done so, get a friend to listen and get them to preorder the book as well.
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