TarValon Talks Episode 3: Wheel of Time Conspiracy Theories
General
Hosts:
Release date:
- October 19th, 2022
Synopsis:
In Episode 3, the hosts Doll, Dianna, and Thad discuss “Conspiracy Theories” from the Wheel of Time from Who Killed Asmodean to who in the world Nakomi really is.
Episode 3 Transcript
00;00;10;03 - 00;00;14;05
Dianna
Hi everyone. Welcome to episode three of TarValon Talks. I'm Dianna.
'00;00;14;09 - 00;00;15;00
Doll
And I'm Doll.
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Thad
And I'm Thad.
00;00;16;24 - 00;00;34;24
Dianna
And today we're going to talk about conspiracy theories in the Wheel of Time. I will say at the top that this entire episode is going to contain spoilers. So if you have not finished the series, turn us off, read all of the books and then come back and it will be a good discussion. That is your first and final warning.
00;00;35;02 - 00;00;42;14
Dianna
Let's kick us off with talking about some older conspiracy theories today. For starters, who killed as Asmodean?
00;00;42;14 - 00;00;58;24
Doll
And that was the big question when I first started reading the series, it’s like all anybody could ask about. There were so many wild theories. I thought it was Elaida for a long time because she was there in Caemlyn and I thought she was Black Ajah, but that was wrong. She was just really crazy.
00;00;58;28 - 00;01;33;01
Thad
That's an understatement. Really, really early on I thought it was Demandred because, you know, he had been playing hooky so far. I mean, you know, there are some Forsaken we don't even meet until book seven, book eight and stuff like that. But I think the fandom was talking about Demandred a lot at that time because he hadn't really made an appearance.Nobody really knew much about him. And I think at that point he had either in the Fires of Heaven or Lord of Chaos, he had that intro going to Shayol Ghul, and that was really the most that we had seen of him. So I was just like, I bet he did it. I bet he did it because it was either going to be him or Moridin.
00;01;33;01 - 00;01;56;16
Dianna
I also thought it was of Demandred, although I will be honest, when I first read these books, I was so young and moving so quickly and very distracted by Moiraine falling through the red arc at that point. Uh, the… Yeah, the red Gateway, but I honestly did not clock that Asmodean was dead the first time that I read the books. I was like, Rand. I was like, “Where did he go?”
00;01;57;00 - 00;02;05;21
Thad
Because it was very quick and it was like, Oh no, it's you. And then we never hear from him again. So you, I guess if you don't pick up on it, you wouldn't think he's dead.
00;02;05;21 - 00;02;20;07
Doll
I think I just assumed that we would find out where he went after that because it didn't read as being dead to me the first time I read it. I think Jordan actually confirmed that he was dead in interviews. Like, ” Oh, that, that was a death scene.”
00;02;20;18 - 00;02;36;00
Thad
I mean I totally can visualize the sequence of, you know, shot of him in a room. I think he's in the tent or something like that. And the flap opens and you just see a shadow cast across the floor. And he looks up and he goes, “Oh no, it's you.” And then, you know, cut to black. And it's just like, okay.
00;02;36;01 - 00;02;42;16
Doll
Yeah, it was a hallway in the castle in Caemlyn. He opens a door and goes, “It's you” and then fade to black.
00;02;42;16 - 00;02;43;20
Thad
Okay. That's right. Yeah.
00;02;43;29 - 00;03;39;06
Dianna
On rereading it, it's pretty clear that he's balefired just based on like context clues from other ways that balefire had been described. But at the time, it's like not obvious at all. And I only was like, “Oh, of course he was balefired” because I was looking for it.
So definitely. I mean, on first reread, I didn't even realize he was dead. So, you know, there's that. But like now looking at it, it's like, okay, so whoever killed him had to be able to channel, had to know how to do balefire. So that narrows it down a bunch as to who it could have been. And I think Jordan at one point said in interviews that it should have been obvious and that it couldn't have been anybody who wasn't previously introduced. So then that also narrows down the possibility of killers.
00;03;39;25 - 00;03;53;02
Thad
Yeah, because after that point, I started to look at, you know, shadowy presence. So it could have been someone like Moghedien because she likes to operate in the shadows. That was probably the next person I moved to if it wasn't going to be Demanded.
00;03;53;02 - 00;03;57;15
Doll
I think I thought it was Shadar Haran for the longest time. I don't know why.
00;03;57;22 - 00;04;03;20
Thad
I've heard that theory too, actually, that it was him that he just kind of moved in because, you know, “oh, no, it's, you.”
00;04;04;03 - 00;04;46;01
Doll
“Oh no, it's you” like you're coming to tell me. I thought I wasn't until I think Jordan said somebody had figured it out. He was going to give more clues. And then he found a blog where somebody figured it out. And so like everybody in the fandom, was scouring everybody's blog trying to find it because he said it included maps and diagrams.
There was a blog where somebody had taken and they’d drawn the locations of all the characters and Caemlyn and they had a diagram of how Graendal could have been walking down the hallway here, ducked into a closet after everybody else passed and came back out and then got back into the room. So when Asmodean came in, she was there waiting for him and I was like, “Oh, that's it, isn't it?”
Now I don't remember who it was or what site it was on.
00;04;46;14 - 00;04;48;06
Thad
Boy, I wish we could find that blog.
00;04;48;13 - 00;05;25;07
Dianna
If we can find that, we'll include it in the show notes, because I definitely want to look at that and doing some research. Saw someone be like “It's obviously Graendal” and then it was like, okay, cool, this person’s figured it out and then didn't read further. They. But yeah, we kind of buried the lead. It is mama Grandal who has murdered, who murders Asmodean and I have to say I love that for her. So Graendal is my favorite Forsaken far and away. And so the fact that she murderers Asmodean is just another check in her amazing box.
00;05;25;17 - 00;05;33;25
Doll
Going back to the whole idea of Demandred doing it. There were for the longest time when everybody thought Taim was Demandred.
00;05;33;25 - 00;05;51;27
Thad
Yeah, I guess it kind of kind of slid that way a little bit with me for a while because that would have been easy for him to get close to Asmodean and just do it so it kind of, it just kind of made sense in terms of logistics. Yeah. So it was the easiest thing to kind of go, okay, yeah, that makes sense.
00;05;52;00 - 00;06;13;18
Dianna
For a long time I assumed that Taim was Demandred and I actually was kind of annoyed when I learned that Robert Jordan was originally planning that. And then I and correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand the story, he was planning on it. Too many fans guessed it, he got miffed and he changed it?
00;06;14;01 - 00;06;30;13
Doll
I believe that is the common belief. I don't know if he ever confirmed that that was. He did say one time that was something that he thought was clever, that fans figured out. I don't know if he confirmed that it was Taim being Demandred or not, but everybody just assumes that's what he was talking about.
00;06;30;13 - 00;06;38;03
Thad
It's the easiest connection because just because of how he acted, everything that happened in the Black Tower later on.
00;06;38;03 - 00;06;39;23
Dianna
The way that Lews Therin reacts to him.
00;06;40;08 - 00;07;17;22
Thad
Yeah. And I mean, if you look at what happened with Demandred later on in the series where he just kind of pops up from Shara with all these Sharan warriors, there is absolutely zero lead up to this at all. They make a handful of mentions, the latter half of the series of well, not not even that like I think Deamndred like mentions Shara twice or something like that and reading back on it now it's like, okay, I guess that makes sense now, but reading it the first time you come into it and he just, he shows up with an army from the other side of the world and everybody's just like, okay.So it kind of feeds into that.
00;07;18;17 - 00;07;28;24
Doll
It really does. And without any context, it feels like he said, “I have to put him somewhere else now, where can that be? Oh, I know the other side. The world that we know nothing about.”
00;07;29;13 - 00;08;19;24
Dianna
Yeah, I only like that because, like, we also have Semirhage in Seanchan, just, like, messing up and murdering everybody in classic Semirhage fashion. But there was. And really, it's like, we had hints that that was going on in Seanchan actually is important in the rest of the series, otherwise I cannot stand the way that Demandred just shows up out of the blue screams for Lews Therin for 20 minutes, murder his, uh Gawyn, and also I don't like it because he is indirectly responsible for the death of Egwene, which makes me sad. And so I don't like that he shows up. Shouts, is irrelevant. Kills Gawyn, almost kills galad and then is killed by Lan. And that's like this was such a nothing burger like this is so weird.
00;08;20;27 - 00;08;24;17
Thad
But because of that, Lan gets the best line in the series by far.
00;08;24;18 - 00;08;25;25
Doll
You're going to have to refresh me.
00;08;26;00 - 00;08;29;13
Thad
Oh, he says.” I didn't come here to win. I came to kill you.”
00;08;29;13 - 00;09;05;21
Dianna
That is a very cool line. I have a quibble that that's the best line in the series, but we'll talk about that later in this episode. But I agree that that is a very cool line and it's a very cool Lan moment for sure. I wish we had just had Mazrim Taim be Demandred. Also, Mazrim Taim is the only person we see raised to be a Forsaken, which is kind of cool but also very random. And it's like, okay, so you wanted this guy to be a Forsaken so then you had to shoehorn a way for him to be one. It's just it's one of the few plot points in the series that I think is really poorly done.
00;09;05;25 - 00;09;21;29
Thad
I guess it kind of makes sense because he survived for like what, 15 years using the power without going mad. So I always assumed that he had protection from the taint, which is why he was able to survive so long because he showed like no signs of madness whatsoever.
00;09;22;12 - 00;09;28;09
Doll
And you also had with the death of Asmodean by balefire, the loss of a Forsaken.
00;09;28;17 - 00;09;36;05
Dianna
Yeah, but at that point they lost at least a couple like Moiraine balefires Be’lal in the third book just out of the blue.
00;09;36;08 - 00;09;44;23
Doll
Yeah, he's lost a few, so he's like, “I'm starting to get a little short on Forsaken here. I need to start building back up.”
00;09;45;04 - 00;09;51;08
Dianna
They can't all be Osan’gar and Aran’gar. I call them the Chaos Twins, even though they're not twins. But that's what they are in my head.
00;09;52;22 - 00;09;53;05
Thad
Yeah, yeah.
00;09;53;14 - 00;10;02;22
Doll
In a lot of ways they are twins. Brought back the same way at the same time.
Should we talk about newer conspiracy theories at the end of the series?
00;10;02;22 - 00;10;07;15
Dianna
Yes. Let's talk about the three unanswered questions. Let's start with Nakomi.
00;10;07;25 - 00;10;24;29
Doll
Nakomi shows up when Aviendha is outside of Rhuidean and we don't really get much information on her. She just sort of shows up at the fireside, boils some tea, cooks a meal out of nowhere, was it out of a magic box like a microwave and tells Aviendha she's got to take care of the Aiel .
00;10;24;29 - 00;10;31;12
Doll
And then we suspect she shows up again when Rand is leaving Shayol Ghul. Do we have a confirmation that that's actually her?
00;10;31;13 - 00;10;32;11
Thad
I don't think so.
00;10;32;11 - 00;10;34;25
Dianna
Yeah, I definitely assumed that that was Nakomi.
00;10;34;28 - 00;10;35;10
Thad
Yeah.
00;10;36;02 - 00;11;26;22
Doll
So we're pretty sure we've seen Nakomi twice. Everybody thinks she looks familiar, but nobody quite place who she is. She's done magical things, but nobody can sense her using the power and nobody knows where she came from. There have been a lot of theories about who she is over the years. I think Brandon has shot down the theory that it's Aviendha from the future in the world of dreams, like showing up in their dreams as they drifted off to sleep or something like that.
And I've heard a couple of other theories, but I sort of started speculating on my own theory after we talked to Michael Livingston. And I think it's it's very well, because of what we talked about in the way Robert Jordan did things.
She's obviously sort of outside the pattern and maybe not the avatar of the True Power, but not the true power, though.
00;11;26;23 - 00;11;27;09
Dianna
The One Power.
00;11;27;09 - 00;12;30;03
Doll
The One Power. Yes, yes. But not the Dark One. The One Power, the light, avatar of the light. But I think this is Robert Jordan's self insert. He has a tendency to gender swap everything. It's a wise woman that kind of knows everything and seems a little light hearted and clever. It very much sounds like a female version of Robert Jordan.A little bit older. Can't quite put a finger on why you know who she is and why she knows everything and why she can do things she shouldn't be able to do.
Well, if she's creating the series, then she's the one that's going to know what's going to happen in the future. And Robert Jordan's just like, “Hey, in the future, when I'm gone and you're telling these stories, these stories need to continue to treat these characters correctly because in the past we have done them wrong.”
Since the Aiel are very much Native Americans. Not totally. They're sort of Irish, sort of native Americans, but a more marginalized community. We need to do them correct in the future. And I don't know if that's on purpose, but it fits nicely in my head. I think Nakomi is Robert Jordan.
00;12;30;03 - 00;12;34;03
Thad
This just sprung to the top of my head. But if it's not Robert Jordan, what if it's Harriet?
00;12;34;06 - 00;12;36;12
Doll
Oh, God. I think you've just changed your mind.
00;12;36;12 - 00;12;41;02
Dianna
Either one of those theories is going to make me cry. I'll literally never be able to read a Nakomi scene again.
00;12;42;05 - 00;12;53;00
Doll
He's always said that every woman in the book is a little bit of Harriet. Or maybe this just is Harriet. Oh, God, I think you've just changed my mind entirely.
00;12;53;00 - 00;12;57;13
Dianna
Oh, my God. I'm, like, tearing up, you guys, literally look, right now.
00;12;57;27 - 00;13;05;19
Thad
Outside of these two wild theories, I have heard a couple of other things. One of them was like, what if it's Tel’aran’rhiod version of Verin?
00;13;06;00 - 00;13;08;19
Dianna
Would that mean that Verin is a hero for the horn?
00;13;08;20 - 00;13;09;24
Thad
Not necessarily.
00;13;09;27 - 00;13;11;19
Doll
Because she would have been dead.
00;13;11;26 - 00;13;17;20
Thad
Because this would be like the other way. Like, you know, Birgitte, it comes out later. She comes back as a Hero.
00;13;18;00 - 00;13;29;20
Doll
Birgitte was in the Tel’aran’rhiod because she's a Hero of the Horn. And that's where heroes go when they're waiting to be reborn. And the only way that Verin would be there after she died is if she was attached to the horn.
00;13;30;06 - 00;14;01;05
Thad
Yeah. And the only reason that I kind of entertain this a little bit is because the stuff that Nakomi talks about, Verin had a kind of somewhat similar conversation like way, way, way, way, way earlier in the series. So it kind of gives a little bit of credit to that theory. But at the same time, I think there was something I wish I would have wrote down a couple of notes on this, but I think Verin is still alive when Nakomi appears.
00;14;01;05 - 00;14;02;07
Doll
Not at Shayol Ghul.
00;14;02;10 - 00;14;03;07
Thad
Not in Shayol Ghul?
00;14;03;12 - 00;14;05;17
Doll
That would have been well after she died.
00;14;05;21 - 00;14;08;25
Dianna
Right, that's after the last battle. That's like at the very, very end.
00;14;08;25 - 00;14;27;03
Thad
So there's also the theory that I believe how the scene goes is Aviendha is, you know, at the fire or whatever. And she just kind of I think she closed her eyes for a second. So a lot of people think that she's actually just in the world of dreams and this is somebody from the world of dreams talking to her. That's not somebody that exists in Rand Land or whatever.
00;14;27;12 - 00;14;38;03
Doll
I think most people believe that this all happened outside of reality, if not in tel'aran'rhiod, in some other form of broken reality, broken pattern, that she slips into.
00;14;38;16 - 00;14;55;01
Thad
The only other one that I'm aware of, but only because Brandon Sanderson answered a question about this one. Someone asked if Nakomi me was Jenn Aiel and Brandon's response to that was,” You're sniffing under the right tree.” So I don't know what that means, to be honest.
00;14;55;07 - 00;15;01;01
Doll
I also think I read somewhere, he said that Nakomi is not a character we know.
00;15;01;11 - 00;15;15;10
Thad
Okay, so if that's the case, then that throws the whole Verin thing just right out the window. I like my theory, my new theory. I came up all by myself. It's Harriet. I'm going to laugh if it comes out. And it is, in fact, Harriet.
00;15;15;29 - 00;15;19;27
Dianna
I love that . Michael Livingston I'll be like, “They scooped me.”
00;15;19;27 - 00;15;23;25
Thad
That, that, or something like Maria or Alan or something like that. You know.
00;15;24;04 - 00;15;43;03
Dianna
I love that. I love those theories. I've always assumed that she was an avatar of the Creator, but I think Brandon Sanderson shot that down at one point, and then as soon as that got shot down, I was like, okay, I'll learn eventually.
So what about the body swap? How does Rand swap bodies with Moridin?
00;15;43;03 - 00;16;15;20
Thad
I've talked to a lot of people about this one over the years. And, you know, everybody seems confused by it, like they don't understand the logistics of how it worked. And I've I've read into it a lot in the past and, you know, over the last couple of days just to prep for this. And I feel like I've kind of reached a clarity with it that to me it just makes absolute crystal clear sense.But I could just be crazy.
But we know that when Rand is fighting Samael in Shadar Logoth Moridin and Rand, they both cast a beam of balefire. And those beams cross.
00;16;16;01 - 00;16;17;12
Doll
They cross the streams?
00;16;17;12 - 00;19;55;03
Thad
Yeah, they cross the streams. You never cross the streams. And at that point, their souls became intertwined because of how balefire works, basically. So that that is basically the answer to how the body swap happened, because after that, they could sense each other, you know, like a Warder to an Aes Sedai could. Moridin hated it so much. And you'll see a few more scenes throughout the series where Rand gets pulled under the dream spike where Moridin is. And they kind of have this back and forth conversation of, “how did you get here? Heck, if I know, I just kind of fell asleep and here I am, you know, in front of you.” So they have a nice, long conversation about it and they're just like, you know, something must have happened with the balefire, right?
So we move forward to the end of the series, and we're at the big climactic battle at Shayol Ghul. We all know that Moridin really just wants to die and the Dark One won't let him die. Ishamael gets put into the new body. He's Moridin now. He is so far gone. And they describe that he's so far gone because he's, you know, his his eyes are basically black at this point because of all the saa. Like he is just channeled so much so long that he is basically insane and he can't do anything to get away with it because the Dark One’s like, “Nah, I need you, you're my number one, you're my Nae’blis” without actually calling him that.
So when all that happens and he uses Moridin to kind of do his thing, to close the bore and everything, and Rand is pulling him out of the cave because… how did how do they do it? I'm trying to remember I haven't read the ending in a long time because I'm rereading the books right now. So I was I was trying not to read the whole battle at Shayol Ghul again. So I'm kind of going off a little bit of fuzzy memory here. So I think when Moridin tried to use Callandor to stop everyone Nynaeve exploited the flaw in Callandor to basically trap him in a link because that was the flaw of Callandor basically is that it's a really powerful sa’angreal, but you can basically force somebody into a link with it and that's what they did. And they kind of trapped him and they used his ability to channel the True Power without the ill effects, you know, the ill side effects of doing so. Right. And in doing so, that kind of merged them together a little bit more.
So we're here at the end. Rand is pulling Moridin's dying body out. He still has access to the true power. thanks to the link. We have heard in previous conversations with the Dark One or Shadar Haran. As long as a body has a… well, as long as a soul hasn't been balefired using the True Power, he can just take that soul and drop it to another empty vessel. Moridin wants nothing more than to die. His body is dying. Rand's body is basically a broken mess at this point, too. And as they're pulling himself out of Shayol Ghul Rand's like, “Oh yeah, I can totally do this thing.” And so what he does is use the True Power, and he swaps bodies because Moridin doesn't want to fight, he just wants to die, right? So he doesn't even attempt an effort at trying to fight Rand, pulling his soul out of his body and placing his own soul into that vessel instead.
So that's where the body swap happens. And basically that's how it it only happens because Moridin doesn't want to live anymore. And he's like, “I can finally just die.”
I've heard a lot of theories about it over the years that could have gone a dozen different ways of, it wasn't what Rand wanted. It just kind of happened as kind of a side effect to sealing the bore. It just kind of everything got jumbled up because of how they were linked together, and it just kind of threw them into each other's bodies and stuff like that. Not really a conspiracy theory. It's just, I think getting all of the pieces in order, that really makes it hard to understand.
00;19;55;08 - 00;20;15;18
Dianna
I definitely think Rand consented to it. I have always thought that it had something to do with how he lid the pipe, which we will talk about in a second. But I've completely forgotten that it's the true power that lets the dark one take somebody's soul and pop it into another body. So I really like that explanation a lot.I think that that makes a lot of sense.
00;20;15;18 - 00;20;39;14
Thad
And it only works because their souls were linked thanks to that balefire crossfire. Like, otherwise it wouldn't have worked. That is the only reason that it worked, because you got a single thread coming out that's kind of connecting them together. So he just goes, “I'm just going to slide along this line and move over here.” Wouldn't have worked if Moridin had put up a fight. If he had put up a fight, it probably wouldn't have worked and they would have both just died.
00;20;39;21 - 00;20;40;05
Dianna
I agree.
00;20;40;12 - 00;20;57;16
Thad
Yeah, because Rand really wanted to live and Moridin really wanted to die and Rand’s body was dying and Moridin's body was fine. So. And. Oh, yeah, yeah, that's right. Callandor also amplifies the True Power. So that really, really helped out his case. It's very, very powerful. Sa’angreal.
00;20;57;16 - 00;21;03;16
Dianna
What a wild sa’angreal that also amplifies the True Power, a power that I'm not even sure that they knew existed.
00;21;03;24 - 00;21;08;29
Doll
Well, I think that was what Lanfear was looking for when she bore the hole.
00;21;09;10 - 00;21;09;26
Dianna
That's true.
00;21;10;00 - 00;21;16;04
Thad
The thing is, is I don't think anybody knew that it amplified the true power until Moridinn picked it up. And he goes. “Ohhhhhh”
00;21;16;12 - 00;21;36;23
Doll
Because I think I went through some stuff on Callandor recently and I saw where Brandon was hinting at that before the last book came out, but he wouldn't say he just RAFO’ed it because he was like, “There's something more in Callandor that that I can't talk about it. You'll find out in the last book.”
00;21;37;02 - 00;21;50;28
Thad
Yeah, because that is definitely one of those things that has never before that scene mentioned at all. I guess the thing is, which is the flaw that you can force someone into a link or that the flaw is that it amplifies the true power because I would consider that a flaw.
00;21;51;02 - 00;21;59;06
Doll
I think that was the flaw. And I think the flaw may have been the Dark One reaching out in the manufacturing process through the hole in prison during the War of Power, right?
00;21;59;22 - 00;22;04;16
Thad
Yes. Yeah. It was made while male channelers were going mad so that would track.
00;22;04;16 - 00;22;21;11
Doll
And Robert Jordan said that Callandor was just one of hundreds, if not thousands of very similar sa’angreal that were created during the War of Power. And the only thing that was special about it was a certain flaw, he didn't say what the flaw was at that point.
00;22;23;00 - 00;22;28;10
Thad
So there you have it. The flaw is, according to us, no need to source, that it can amplify the troop.
00;22;28;12 - 00;22;31;17
Dianna
We only sort of check our sources on this podcast. I’m kidding.
00;22;31;27 - 00;22;47;08
Thad
So Rand used Callandor to channel so much of the True power through Moridin because he had the shield on it that even the dark one was just like I can't turn it off. And that's how the stuff was done.
00;22;47;12 - 00;22;53;28
Dianna
Is it a bug or a feature? It seems kind of like a feature if you use it to win the last battle.
00;22;53;28 - 00;22;56;16
Doll
You can turn any bug into a feature if you use it correctly.
00;22;56;27 - 00;22;58;19
Dianna
If you're Rand and you try hard enough.
00;22;58;27 - 00;23;21;00
Thad
I you know, I want to say it's conspiracy theory. For a long time I was kind of like in that kind of conspiracy camp of, you know, oh, it could have been this, it could have been that. But but when I really started to look into it, it was, oh, it was not really a conspiracy after all.
It's just a lot of people not connecting all of the dots, which admittedly are not, you know, one, two, three, four, five.
00;23;21;09 - 00;23;32;06
Doll
At this master level game of connect the dots. They're just going to say, like, it's not that just, you know, outlining a little sheep or something.
00;23;32;22 - 00;23;47;12
Thad
No. Because it's over the course of like five or six books and, you know, on your first time through, you know, you miss so much stuff. Like I, I want to meet the person who picks up on everything on their first read through because they if say they do I say they're reading the wiki now.
00;23;47;19 - 00;24;18;23
Dianna
Yeah. That's also consistent with how Robert Jordan built his mysteries where like they go over several books but there's little hints along the way and little bread crumbs that like once here it's very similar to the Graendal killed Asmodean conspiracy theory or mystery. So I like that a lot.
Do we know what Brandon has, uhm Brandon Sanderson, probably shouldn’t call him Brandon. I obviously do not know this man as a friend. Do we know what Brandon Sanderson has said on on how they did it?
00;24;19;05 - 00;24;31;22
Thad
He actually confirmed to somebody on Reddit that Moridin's soul and body got connected when their balefire crossed at Shadar Logoth. So when it came to the body swap, the soul that wanted to live went to the good body. The soul that wanted to die, went to the bad body. So, yes.
00;24;31;22 - 00;24;34;19
Doll
Okay. I didn’t know he had answered that one.
00;24;35;03 - 00;24;37;12
Dianna
I mean, that's not like that's not like an answer of how.
00;24;37;13 - 00;25;29;02
Thad
Well, I mean, it just kind of makes sense with Rand is still connected to the true power. Even after sealing the bore he has access to it just just because of the nature of Callandor and, you know, Shayol Ghul basically coming down around their heads. And he's like, “I've got this power and, you know, I'm dying, my body is dying.” And he sees Moridin basically passed out on the floor and he's just like, “I can feel that his body is fine.” And, you know, this is well, well, after the merging with Lews Therin that I think it's just one of those things of he you know whenever he remembers a weave that he doesn't know how to do it and he just immediately knows how to do it, I think it was just one of those situations of, “Oh, I can just take the one power and just move my soul.”
00;25;29;02 - 00;25;42;06
Dianna
I can't remember. Does that have anything to do with a very grumpy female channeler who's supposed to help him die? I can't remember her name. I think she's a former Seanchan. I think she's a former damane I think.
00;25;42;06 - 00;25;44;21
Thad
Oh, you're not talking about Alana?
00;25;44;26 - 00;25;54;07
Dianna
No, not Alana. I would never bring up Alana. I hate her. No, there's the former damane who is incredibly strong and she is prophesied to help Rand die.
00;25;54;14 - 00;26;26;22
Thad
I mean, I always saw that as, because, you know, after after the body swap happens, she's there with basically a survival pack of here you go now, go on your way. Like she helped him just get out of Dodge after all of that happened. So I feel like it's one of those, you know, she did help him die not by literally spilling his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul.That's literally one of the lines of the prophecy. But she basically set him up to get him out of the situation. So she did help him die.
00;26;26;23 - 00;26;28;25
Dianna
Yeah, she certainly helped his body die.
00;26;29;03 - 00;26;30;21
Thad
I can't remember her name. I'm trying to remember.
00;26;30;21 - 00;26;33;19
Dianna
As we know names, me and names.
00;26;33;23 - 00;26;39;20
Thad
All I remember is that she is like a 400 year old damane or something like that. Like she is old.
00;26;39;22 - 00;26;48;02
Dianna
Yeah, she's super old. She's super strong and she is insanely grumpy. I remember she's so mean to everyone except Rand, but I'm like, okay.
00;26;48;18 - 00;27;05;07
Thad
Alivia. But it's not spelled as you think. It's Alivia. Yes, she helps him disappear. She helps him die. That's how I always inferred that. But with that body swap that happens, they're burning dead Moridin on the funeral pyre or whatever. In Rand's body.
We see something happen, don't we?
00;27;05;13 - 00;29;03;26
Dianna
Yep. He likes the pipe and he doesn't channel to do so. Sanderson has confirmed that he does not use the one power or the true power. The reason I was asking if Sanderson had said anything about the body swap is because when I was looking into this, I saw that, Sanderson said. He doesn't. He also doesn't know how Rand does thit, because this scene was written by Robert Jordan himself when he knew he wouldn't finish the series. He wrote it, gave it to Harriet and was like, “This is the final scene of the book, of the series.”
And so for this one, I am not sure if we're ever going to get an answer. Maybe Harriet knows genuinely unsure, but this one is one of my favorites to theorize on because this, it kind of feels a little bit cool, but obvious to me how he does it.
I think that in his fight with the dark line, in accessing the true power, using the one power that fight happens outside of the pattern and Rand had been already, I call him enlightened Rand, post-enlightenment essentially on Dragonmount, he'd already been very connected with the world. You can see that in his mood as his moods are darkening the world is kind of going to hell in a handbasket. And then once he becomes enlightened, the weather around him is a, like a clear, perfect circle. So he'd already been very tied to the world and tied to the pattern. And then I think in fighting the Dark One, I feel like he stepped outside of the pattern and had sort of a Neo in the Matrix moment. Now when Neo is in the Matrix, he can see all the ones and zeros. I feel like Rand now, post the final battle, post last battle, can see the weaves of the pattern and can modify them to suit his whims, which is wildly powerful. But he's Rand. He's just a sweet sheepherder who just wants to go and read books.
00;29;03;26 - 00;29;04;22
Doll
And smoke his pipe.
00;29;05;16 - 00;29;14;27
Dianna
And, be a sheepherder and smoke his pipe. And so rather than annihilating the world, he will just, you know, pick at the pattern just to light a pipe.
00;29;15;13 - 00;29;18;00
Thad
So what you're saying is he just turns air into fire.
00;29;18;00 - 00;29;30;08
Dianna
Basically, but not through any source of the power. Yeah, he just, he'll take a little strand of the pattern and he'll be like, you know, “this surely won't have a butterfly effect. It will just change that thread” and has himself a lit pipe.
00;29;30;09 - 00;29;36;05
Thad
Well, if he's enlightened Rand and he sees reality in a whole new way, I think he would be able to anticipate a butterfly effect.
00;29;36;05 - 00;29;36;19
Dianna
Right? Right.
00;29;36;24 - 00;29;37;11
Doll
You would think.
00;29;38;00 - 00;29;38;18
Dianna
You would think.
00;29;38;29 - 00;29;49;06
Thad
I like that idea a lot. I guess I thought of that in a, like a super rudimentary level what’s it say in the book - He just kind of wills it into existence. And I go,” Oh yeah, he can just change it.”
00;29;49;06 - 00;30;13;17
Dianna
Yep. He wills it into existence because he tweaks the pattern because he can modify the pattern now. I feel like at some point the Creator, even though he's very hands off, he's like one of those hands off deities ever seen in any fantasy book. I do feel like at some point probably would have stepped in. But he trusts Rand and the Dragon so much that he's like, “No, you just go, you live your life, you tweak the pattern, you pass on.”
00;30;13;25 - 00;30;15;21
Thad
Who's to say the Creator even noticed?
00;30;15;26 - 00;30;19;12
Dianna
True. Honestly, Rand's just been like, “I'm just gonna light a fire here and there.”
00;30;19;20 - 00;30;24;27
Thad
I mean, what I'm saying is how do we how do we know that the creator's even paying attention to the world? Right.
00;30;25;07 - 00;30;26;06
Dianna
We have no idea.
00;30;26;06 - 00;30;35;07
Doll
I mean, if he doesn't say anything about all the threads that were cut by all the balefire that was being thrown around, is he really going to say something about a couple of strands of fire?
00;30;36;07 - 00;31;04;27
Dianna
Or does he say something by way of Egwene and the way that she fixes all of that, he's like, and “I'm just going to drop this person here when they are necessary.” Give them this ability when they are necessary. I feel like the creator is paying attention, but is tweaking the pattern in such small ways as like this person relearned this weave at this time, this person gets access to that that he's like a very, very soft touch.
00;31;04;27 - 00;31;07;24
Doll
Maybe the flaw in Callandor wasn't the Dark One.
00;31;08;14 - 00;31;10;03
Dianna
Could have been the creator all along.
00;31;10;12 - 00;31;20;26
Thad
Does this kind of reach a level of the Creator and the Dark One are opposing equal forces and Rand is that kind of little teeter that just offsets that enough for everything to happen?
00;31;21;01 - 00;31;28;28
Dianna
It's so funny because I've never considered the Dark One and the Creator to be polar opposites because they never fight.
00;31;29;04 - 00;31;34;03
Thad
They never fight because they can't defeat each other, right? They're like ultimate equals.
00;31;34;10 - 00;31;35;29
Doll
Creation versus destruction.
00;31;36;19 - 00;31;40;02
Thad
Right. There's a whole trilogy of books on that called Mistborn , you should go read it.
00;31;40;05 - 00;31;44;17
Dianna
It's been a minute since I've read Mistborn, and really the only thing I remember is the magic system.
00;31;44;17 - 00;32;06;20
Thad
Yeah, I, I think it's kind of more or less that, you know, generally when there are cosmic like level entities like that that always seems to be the case of they exist in the they're kind of they can't do anything to each other, so they have to use stuff below them to offset it enough just to give them that kind of iota of power over the other one, just to give like a domino effect.
00;32;06;20 - 00;32;09;10
Thad
And I think that's what Rand was.
00;32;09;17 - 00;32;14;20
Dianna
Does the Dark One ever actually talked to Rand? Obviously, it's Ishamael in the first three books.
00;32;15;00 - 00;32;16;10
Thad
Does The Dark One talk to Rand?
00;32;17;04 - 00;32;19;17
Dianna
Yeah, like it's ishamael in the first three books.
00;32;19;17 - 00;32;21;08
Thad
At the end of the book, he's talking to them.
00;32;21;08 - 00;32;43;15
Dianna
At the end of the book, it's just like so it's such a strange dichotomy to me that this, like, massive evil entity would be like, “Hi little person, I'm going to speak to you,” but the Creator never does the same to like Moridin. Not that we get a lot of Moridin point of view. They interact with the world in such a different way that it's tough for me to wrap my brain around that being opposite the people.
00;32;43;15 - 00;32;59;28
Doll
In the same way that the Creator is creation and the Dark One is destruction, the Creator is also freewill and darkness is domination. So it's not really the Creator's path to force people to choose the right thing. It just gives them what they need to do it.
00;33;00;24 - 00;33;02;10
Thad
Yeah, it's kind of a very hands off thing.
00;33;02;10 - 00;33;19;19
Doll
That really goes back to how Jordan incorporates world religions, because there really is a theme in especially Eastern religions of a hands off creator who gives you the pieces that you need to do the right thing. And the destructor who tries to eff you up.
00;33;19;20 - 00;33;25;12
Dianna
That makes sense, since obviously the whole religion of Wheel of Time is based on a very eastern religious mindset.
00;33;25;20 - 00;33;29;13
Thad
So to answer your question, Rand can just change physics on the fly, right?
00;33;29;22 - 00;33;34;23
Dianna
But he does it in very small doses because he has a sweet boy, sweet little sheepherder.
00;33;34;29 - 00;33;39;14
Thad
He's he's done his job. He just wants to rest. And you know what? He has earned it.
00;33;39;22 - 00;33;43;19
Dianna
He’s so earned that let that man sleep without pain in his side.
00;33;43;26 - 00;33;45;19
Thad
Well he doesn't have that pain in his side anymore.
00;33;45;19 - 00;33;47;04
Doll
yeah , because that body’s gone.
00;33;48;11 - 00;33;52;04
Thad
Didn't mention that he still has the fleck in his eye from Moridin’s body.I forget.
00;33;52;04 - 00;33;59;27
Doll
They mention that they see a small fleck, but I don't know if it was the same as the saa.
00;33;59;27 - 00;34;01;10
Thad
See, that's that's another question.
00;34;01;10 - 00;34;19;07
Doll
I just don’t remember, it could be, been too long since I read that line. It's definitely there ,something is definitely there, even if it's just a little flicker that could also go back to the balance between creation and destruction. And there's a little bit of both in each side.
00;34;19;07 - 00;34;40;20
Thad
Yeah, because, you know, if you look at any time that they have the disc, it's always pure black and pure white was never the little fleck of white in the black and vice versa. They were basically equals and they couldn't really, you know, the light and dark couldn’t do anything to each other. So, you know, Moridinn was basically that speck of black in the white. And Rand was that speck of white in black, kind of thing.
00;34;40;26 - 00;34;43;26
Doll
And now Rand has that little speck of Moridin in him.
00;34;44;26 - 00;35;01;25
Dianna
I love that we get hints of the body swap before it happens, because when Aviendha sees her children, she has children who have black hair. And I was like, “Why would Aviendha have children with black hair?” And then like, I was like, “Oh, because she has kids with Moridin-Rand. Okay, yeah, that makes sense.”
00;35;02;29 - 00;35;03;23
Doll
Because she's not pregnant yet.
00;35;04;02 - 00;35;09;21
Dianna
She's not pregnant. She's and I don't think she and Rand other than sex-gloo, sex igloo.
00;35;10;12 - 00;35;12;19
Doll
Or the igloo in the middle of nowhere?
00;35;13;02 - 00;35;13;21
Thad
The middle of nowhere Seanchan.
00;35;13;21 - 00;35;21;05
Dianna
I’m pretty sure that they don't have sex before the last battle, so I've always assumed that Moridin-Rand gets her pregnant.
00;35;22;11 - 00;35;28;14
Thad
It's hard to remember when stuff like that happens, because Jordan was always very like offscreen with it.
00;35;28;14 - 00;35;32;11
Doll
It’s very PG 13, right? You see everything right up until the lights go off.
00;35;33;09 - 00;35;40;23
Thad
You know, funny. Funny that you do mention that, though, because I, I do remember reading that and going, huh. But they're both redheads.
00;35;40;23 - 00;35;58;13
Dianna
And they're both like, like Rand is half Aiel and his non-Aiel side as a redhead and Aviendha’s pure Aiel so yeah they should have red hair babies but I think she has I think it's two and two, that struck me as odd until we got the body swap scene and then I was like, my brain exploded.
00;35;58;13 - 00;36;02;04
Thad
Hey, you learn something new every day and look at that, learning something new.
00;36;02;27 - 00;36;04;12
Dianna
That’s what this podcast is for, we learn from each other.
00;36;05;00 - 00;36;10;06
Doll
I know I learn something new every time we talk.
00;36;10;06 - 00;36;12;09
Thad
And I've read these books, I don't know how many times.
00;36;12;12 - 00;36;16;14
Doll
I’ve only read the last one once because it was such a emotional rollercoaster.
00;36;17;04 - 00;36;23;00
Thad
It tears you apart, it tears you apart. I think the next day my face was just like puffy red.
00;36;23;00 - 00;36;33;20
Dianna
I’ve read the last book twice and every time, it's brutal. The last time I read the book, the last book was summer of 2020. So it was a dark time. Somehow it was very comforting.
00;36;35;19 - 00;36;38;17
Thad
Do we have any other small conspiracy theories?
00;36;39;00 - 00;36;49;18
Doll
One does wonder how a little shaggy horse from Two Rivers ends up traveling the entire world, only to die in the last battle.
00;36;50;14 - 00;36;51;09
Thad
And get revived in the Companion.
00;36;51;15 - 00;36;59;28
Dianna
I love that the Companion revives her, justice for Bella! I'm pretty sure I read that Harriet was the one who was like, “Bella must die.”
00;37;01;20 - 00;37;23;20
Doll
The way she tells it. Brandon wrote a scene in which it would have been impossible for Bella to survive. And she said,” You cannot do this. You know, it's okay. She can be there. But if you put her in this situation, she will die.” And Brandon’s like, “I can't do that.” So Harriet took her editorial copy and wrote in “comma and then died.” So Harriet did kill her.
00;37;25;05 - 00;37;27;13
Dianna
As an editor, I appreciate that.
00;37;28;18 - 00;37;39;14
Thad
I think the story also follows that after she did that, she felt bad enough about it that in the companion they reversed the decision, basically, I want to say I heard that at JordanCon one year.
00;37;39;21 - 00;37;49;20
Doll
I feel like that was said during, right after the book released, on the panel. She's like, “Then I felt bad because I love Bella.”
00;37;50;29 - 00;37;54;24
Thad
I mean, I remember several panels over the years just called “Is bella a dark friend?”
00;37;54;28 - 00;37;55;21
Dianna
No, Bela is the creator.
00;37;56;29 - 00;38;01;00
Doll
Yeah, that's what the bumper stickers said. Did you ever see the bumper stickers they did?
00;38;01;00 - 00;38;04;25
Dianna
No. I saw them online. I've never seen them in person.
00;38;04;25 - 00;38;11;27
Doll
I have some home, but one of them is “Bella is a dark friend.” And there's another one that says,” I killed Asmodean.”
00;38;11;27 - 00;38;28;25
Dianna
Bella is the creator. Bella is the Avatar of the creator.
I don't think I have any more questions. Listeners, if you have more conspiracy theories or questions that you want us to answer, feel free to reach out to us at producer.tvt@gmail.com.
00;38;30;01 - 00;38;37;25
Thad
Or leave us a comment on the thread for questions on the site.
00;38;37;25 - 00;38;50;16
Doll
Our next segment is “Ask TarValon Talks.” If you have a question for us, please reach out to producer.tvt@gmail.com or you can post in our Ask TarValon Talks thread in the General forms on the boards.
00;38;52;07 - 00;39;19;28
Dianna
I apologize because I am going to butcher this name, but Novice Rhyin al'Hut. Sorry if I did not say that correctly. Says “First time caller, first time listener. I would love to hear your speculation on if/how Rand and the Dark One will be depicted, quote unquote, fighting in the sky or will Rafe potentially skip over such an awesome plot point? I would love to hear your thoughts.”
We have thoughts.
00;39;20;25 - 00;39;21;29
Doll
So many thoughts.
00;39;22;25 - 00;39;23;19
Thad
What are your thoughts?
00;39;23;23 - 00;39;30;09
Doll
I just I know that they have increased the budget for the CGI coming up, which is great to hear.
00;39;30;10 - 00;39;32;11
Thad
Oh, that. I didn't know that. That's thumbs up.
00;39;32;19 - 00;39;33;08
Dianna
I heard that as well.
00;39;33;08 - 00;39;54;03
Doll
I think I heard that. Rafe said it in one of the interviews at one point that they had to increase their budget after the first season came out so they would have better CGI, which makes me think that they are planning to do something a little more spectacular and we're going to see something. It may not be as epic as what's in our heads, but I think we'll see some.
00;39;54;03 - 00;42;19;13
Dianna
Yeah I think that it will depend very much on where Falme… and that's that's how I say it by the way I kind of skirt the middle ground between “May” and then having none… I think it'll very much depend on if the battle of Falme is episode, like in the midpoint of the series or the end of the series, or the season, not the series. Cause we're not that's not the end of the series. Midpoint of the season or the end of the season, because I don't think it makes sense to do it as a like there's no such thing as a midseason finale when you're streaming a show and it doesn't feel like it would make sense to put it and then have other major plot points come after it because it's so epic.
So if Falme is the final battle of season two, then I think we are going to get some version of it. I don't, I'm very I'll be very curious to see how they do it, because this is a scene that I did have to go back and reread because it had been so long and my understanding of the scene was completely incorrect. I thought that Rand and the Dark One’s battle was projected essentially onto the mists. I did not understand that for some reason the mist from the horn of valere take Rand into the sky. And that's where we Ishamael fights him, which is very strange. Never again. How does that happen? But sure, sure, horn of valere.
And so because of that, I was like, Oh, it's very interesting. And I, we know that we're going to be getting an on the ground look at the battle of Falme, which we don't get in the book. So I'm wondering if we'll see, like if we'll kind of cut back and forth like Rand and Ishamael fighting and then people on the ground seeing it. But again, I only think we're going to get that if it's episodes, I think we're only getting eight episodes again this season, so if it's either episode seven or eight.
I will say that I want it because when I first read the series way, way back when, the first thing of Wheel of Time merch I wanted was a one of those like scraps of cloth that have it painted. It's like, I want that and I want that. I want that show merch. Amazon Hear Me! If you do that in the sky, I want that show merch really, really badly. I think it would be amazing.
00;42;20;16 - 00;42;22;28
Doll
Yeah, I agree. I mean, Amazon, please listen.
00;42;23;07 - 00;43;14;00
Thad
I could see them running it mid-to-late season if not a season finale because they kind of have said that they're meshing thread lines together and you know, we kind of still don't know what that means, if anything, to go by on season one. You know, some things will change. Some things will stay the same. If they do the whole side thread with Masema, if they don't cut Masema out, it'll definitely need to happen. And I wouldn't believe that they would put it at the end of the season to lead into the third season because again, we don't know where they're going to go or what's going to happen because you can't go in expecting all the stuff that happened in book one. We've got Perrin hunting down Fain to get the dagger and the horn basically. So that thread line is open. I believe that them hunting for the horn happens leading up to, you know, the battle of Falme.
00;43;14;02 - 00;43;17;04
Dianna
Yeah. Correct. Because it's the hunt for the horn. Yeah. And the dagger.
00;43;18;19 - 00;43;51;03
Thad
Yeah. Cause the dagger’s with the, but we don't have, we don't have the urgency of we need the dagger because some something, you know, Mat needs it or whatever, because you know, we don't know what's going on with him. I'm sure we'll find out at the beginning of the season. So it's kind of kind of hard to guess. I thought, I honestly thought that it was probably going to happen midseason, like they were going to put it in and then some other stuff was going to happen and then like the end of season one, they're going to be like, All right, this stuff happened. Now here comes like the Seanchan again, right?
00;43;51;03 - 00;43;51;28
Dianna
I don't think. Because the Seanchan get driven out. So in the battle of Falme.
00;43;58;04 - 00;44;07;17
Thad
I'm sorry not them coming back but you know a situation like the Seanchan of you know, the next thing shows up at the end of season to you know, hook you into season three.
00;44;07;18 - 00;44;38;05
Dianna
If we did the battle of Falme in the middle of, you guys have me saying Falme now, of the middle of the season, I think we would end the season either, okay, sorry, I think we would end the season at Rhuidean and I think that we would skip Tear. I'm going back to my we skip to Tear theory because to do Falme and Tear in one season would be bananas plotline wise. it's, it would be too much escalation too quickly.
00;44;39;25 - 00;44;43;24
Thad
Well I mean what if they ended the season on sacking Tear?
00;44;44;01 - 00;44;53;14
Dianna
And then you start season three at the beggin…, with sacking Tear? I don't think that makes sense plotline wise. I don't think that makes sense from a show running perspective, like you typically would want...
00;44;54;10 - 00;45;00;05
Thad
Well, I'm not a showrunner, so full disclosure, I do not watch a lot of TV.
00;45;00;25 - 00;45;22;19
Dianna
I watch too much TV, way too much TV. But I don't think you would end on a battle and then have, what, a year and a half of no show? And then you pick it up with the battle again. That would just kind of be really unsatisfying for viewers. I think that they're going to end it somewhere else. I think that ending on Falme is, it makes a lot of sense.
00;45;23;19 - 00;45;26;11
Thad
Ending on the battle itself. Yeah, yeah. OK.
00;45;26;11 - 00;45;43;24
Dianna
There's also several things that happened in that battle that are super crucial to Rand's plotline. That's where he gets stabbed. That's where he gets the original injury from the dark one or from Ishamael. That's also where he gets branded the second time and they didn't do I don't remember when he gets branded the first time. Iis it in the end of the Eye of the world?
00;45;44;29 - 00;45;45;17
Doll
Yes. It is.
00;45;45;17 - 00;45;55;27
Dianna
Yeah. So we've skipped that branding so and I really want them to do the branding that is maybe my favorite part of the prophecy is that he's branded twice with a heron and then twice with the dragon.
00;45;57;00 - 00;46;02;12
Thad
Yeah. So it was like, you know, once for him it was like once for something, two for confirmation.
00;46;02;24 - 00;46;11;22
Dianna
I thought that that language is beautiful and I love when it happens. I get chills every time I read it. And you know, we've had the I cannot say that cycle’s name correctly is it the Karaethon cycle?
00;46;12;13 - 00;46;13;23
Doll
Yes it’s Karaethon. Yes something close like that
00;46;14;06 - 00;46;35;07
Dianna
Yeah so I think we've had it mentioned it's in the show, they've talked about it. So because that's the book that Rand is reading in the library when he meets Loial. And so maybe at some point we'll actually hear the prophecy. And if we hear the prophecy, then I would assume that they would also then need to do the prophecy.
00;46;36;04 - 00;46;39;00
Thad
What if they open up Season two Episode one with the prophecy.
00;46;39;10 - 00;46;42;27
Dianna
I would love that, I would love to have Rosamund Pike reading the prophecy.
00;46;44;05 - 00;46;49;00
Thad
Did we get much of it at any in the first season? I don't remember any at all.
00;46;49;08 - 00;46;53;00
Doll
The part. The fact that it exists. Well, no, that was in the Origins episodes.
00;46;53;11 - 00;47;06;12
Thad
Oh, you're right. They were.
So I feel like we've kind of shifted hard away from the actual question, which was, is the battle of the sky going to happen?
So I think they will.
00;47;06;12 - 00;47;07;27
Dianna
I’m coming down on they will.
00;47;08;29 - 00;47;14;02
Thad
Yeah, I think they will. Only because that sets everything into motion.
00;47;14;13 - 00;47;19;13
Doll
It sets everything in motion. It says that Rand is the hero and it's just an epic scene and an epic image.
00;47;19;13 - 00;47;29;19
Dianna
It's also actually a comprehensible scene for all that I made fun of it earlier, unlike the end of the Eye of the World, which I read that and my head hurts. It doesn’t make sense.
00;47;29;19 - 00;47;30;27
Thad
That is a bonkers.
00;47;31;10 - 00;47;35;28
Dianna
Incomprehensible. I think I read that scene at least five times every time I read Eye of the World, I am like, what is happening?
00;47;37;11 - 00;47;39;12
Doll
In and out of the world of dreams and like oh hey Perrin.
00;47;39;12 - 00;47;53;21
Dianna
And then he's like teleporting everywhere I’m like what’s going on. He’s like randomly in Tarwin's Gap, it's it's nuts. It's nuts. The, the battle in the sky is a much cleaner scene and a cleaner visual.
00;47;54;19 - 00;47;55;13
Thad
And way cooler.
00;47;55;13 - 00;47;56;04
Doll
Way Cooler.
00;47;56;05 - 00;47;56;18
Dianna
Way Cooler.
00;47;57;15 - 00;48;16;17
Thad
Also with the battle at Falme we do well. I mean, she's earlier in the book, but we basically get confirmation of Lanfear at the end of the second book because you know, she's Selene up and through and we don't know it's Lanfear and then at the end of the second book, Lanfear is like, hey, Min take care of Rand because I'm coming back for him.
00;48;16;23 - 00;48;17;08
Dianna
So good.
00;48;18;07 - 00;48;31;06
Thad
Also, we do kind of need the battle in the sky. You mentioned Elaida. That's how she knows it's Rand because that's what everybody is talking about for basically the next book or two of hey, did you see that crazy thing in the sky, that red haired kid fighting the, you know, the Dark one.
00;48;31;06 - 00;48;34;01
Dianna
Yeah, it’s basically his coming out as the Dragon.
00;48;35;11 - 00;48;42;03
Doll
I'm sorry. I just had this image of Rand walking in a pride parade with this Dragon banner as he came out as the Dragon.
00;48;42;03 - 00;48;46;18
Thad
You just need Mazrim Taim walking by with his with his blue gold dragons.
00;48;46;28 - 00;49;22;23
Dianna
Yeah, yeah. He's more outed then like willingly comes out poor Rand. And if I go to a pride parade next year and someone is dressed in Rand al’Thor cosplay with a dragon banner behind them, my heart will soar , someone do this!
If you want us to answer any other questions or burning questions that you have about the Wheel of Time, feel free to reach out to us, to at producer.tvt@gmail.com or drop by tarvalon.net and ask us in the Ask TarValon Talks thread and drop your questions. We would love to see them.
00;49;26;15 - 00;49;41;14
Doll
In this segment our hosts will take turns telling us about their favorite moments from the books. Please be warned that this segment may contain spoilers if. You have not finished reading the books, I suggest you stop listening now and join us next time.
00;49;41;14 - 00;50;21;03
Dianna
So we're going to talk today about my favorite scene. As I have mentioned previously, my favorite character is Egwene. And as I have also mentioned on a previous episode, my least favorite character is Elaida. So it should come as no surprise that my favorite scene in the series is when Egwene absolutely roasts Elida with truly the most brutal insult in the entire series, which I'm going to read directly because I'm not going to try and paraphrase it, it’s so epic.
“I dare the truth, Elida, you are a coward and a tyrant. I'd name you a dark friend as well, but I suspect that the Dark One would perhaps be embarrassed to associate with you.”
It's so brutal.
00;50;22;02 - 00;50;27;10
Thad
That's pretty good. You are so awful that even the Dark One wants nothing to do with you.
00;50;27;10 - 00;50;41;00
Dianna
And the funniest thing about that it’s true because Alviarin cannot stand Elida. She thinks she's an idiot. I mean, Elaida is an idiot, Alviarin’s not wrong, but Alviarin’s like,” Nope, would never be a dark friend actually. To dumb.”
00;50;41;27 - 00;50;45;27
Thad
Do you think Elida would be as bad as she was if she never interacted with Fain?
00;50;46;05 - 00;50;52;10
Dianna
Yes, I think Elida is one of those deeply twisted people who thinks that she is justified in all of her horrible actions.
00;50;53;14 - 00;50;59;26
Doll
Trying to remember what did we see of her before Fain? They met that first scene in Caemlyn?
00;51;00;02 - 00;51;46;11
Thad
They met in Caemlyn. She had the foretelling about Rand and she basically goes back to the Tower of, you know, kind of we should probably do something about this kid because things aren't looking too hot, which, you know, at the time you think, oh, she's a red sister, she probably saw something about him channeling and wants to do something about it. I mean, we know that eventually he'll start channeling, actually. I mean, it's kind of a given because they tell you basically chapter one like, hey, it's you, you're the one that's going to save us all. And then she sees it.
I think the next we see of her is when the girls are already at the tower and she is, she basically kind of keeps dropping in on them because Elayne’s there and she likes Elayne and stuff like that because she spends a lot of her time trying to get Elayne back.
00;51;46;16 - 00;52;09;18
Dianna
She’s so vile in a New Spring. I mean, only a monster, cause she beats, she beats Moiraine in order to get Moiraine to channel better. And she's a horrible, horrible person to Moiraine and Siuan. And she's just, she's vile from start to finish. Like, just awful. I kind of hate Elaida.
00;52;10;28 - 00;52;17;04
Thad
A lot of people don't read New Spring until after the Winter’s Heart so at that point you already greatly dislike her.
00;52;17;09 - 00;52;18;11
Dianna
Just it does not change how she's written.
00;52;19;14 - 00;52;42;24
Thad
No, no it absolutely does not. And you are right. She's a vile, horrible person. But we don't really start to see that until they depose Siuan. A lot of the sisters are kind of having an ego because they can channel, you know, we see that in society of the Aes Sedai. If I can channel so I'm better than you is the headspace of a lot of sisters in Elaida’s got it extra bad.
00;52;42;24 - 00;53;39;06
Dianna
She’s an absolute megalomaniac. The other reason I love this scene is because it's really the culmination of like all of Egwene’s journey. She stays calm under being literally beaten with the One Power, which is she's absolutely learned from all of her training as a novice and then as an accepted and also from all the Wise ones. Gosh knows those Wise ones will beat you until you are black and blue if you do not do what they want you to do.
And then also it’s her, just like asserting, really asserting her power as Amyrlin. I definitely credit this scene with her being able to then unite the Tower and bring it back together and keep the Tower whole, more or less during the Seanchan attack that comes pretty shortly thereafter. And just like to see it's like I'm like, oh, the baby's all grown up. Look at her do her thing. It just makes me love. I love her already, but it made me love her all over again.
00;53;40;21 - 00;53;50;06
Doll
Yeah. That's like the moment she truly became Amylin. Not that she wasn't before then, but it's when she truly, truly started to act like Amyrlin and believe it.
00;53;51;08 - 00;54;23;28
Thad
I think the big growing up point for her, like right before she travels through Tel’aran’rhiod to get to Salidar in like the night is when she pays her toh back to the Wise ones when you know she goes, “Hey, I'm not a sister, I'm just a novice.” And they beat her , as you said, black and blue for hours. And I think that for her, I think that was a like character defining moment for her of All right, I got to put on the big boy pants now.
00;54;24;10 - 00;54;33;01
Doll
Yeah. She's like, I've got to make up for my the lies I've told. I can't call other people out on theirs until I have atoned for my own.
00;54;33;03 - 00;54;54;19
Dianna
This is one of those scenes where I'm like, doesn't have to be exactly like this in the show, but has to be in the show. Maybe that exact line, because that exact line so epic, this is, that is my favorite line in the whole series. Yeah. Also Rafe is a, as from what I understand, a massive Egwene fangirl so keeping my fingers crossed that he's going to do me right.
00;54;54;19 - 00;55;01;25
Thad
We already got that in the show when they're meeting Siuan and they go, “Here's the most powerful channeler in a thousand years.”
00;55;02;04 - 00;55;50;08
Dianna
Egwene is like me. She has such pick me girl energy. That scene is hilarious. I watch Egwene when I watch that scene every time because her body language, Madeleine I can't remember what her last name was, Madeleine Madden I think is her last name, her body language in that scene is so perfect. It's like, pick me, pick me, straightens up like this almost like does her hair and then just deflated looking at Nynaeve like Wait, you? and right before that they come in and Egwene bows to Siuan and Nynaeve doesn’t and Egwene looks at Nynaeve like “oh what do I do, do I bow, I don’t know.” It's so funny, I love that scene.
Those are all the topics we had to talk about today. Thank you, everyone, for listening. I hope you enjoyed. Come back next time for our episode on Samhain.
00;55;50;08 - 00;55;51;17
Thad
Yes, Samhain. (pronounced “saa-ween”)
00;55;51;17 - 00;56;12;14
Dianna
Yeah. That festival, Samhain and the origins from the Wheel of Time and how we celebrate it here at TarValon.Net.
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